Dunno about anyone else reading this thread but I'm totally confused.
Hi
The problem gets worse when people do not even understand the terminology used in Standards
Some seem to believe the term " fixed " means fixed in position /location
What it really means is a PERMANENT connection, one that requires TOOLS to make, break or change
Not something that can be simply unplugged or removed /undone by hand
Jamtin said
06:56 PM Jan 21, 2016
Hi Radar,
My thoughts on the subject.
The regulator is designed to reduce the cylinder pressure (typically 880 kPa at 25 deg C, to suit the equipment in your van,
(my stove for example operates at 2.75 kPa), and is designed to operate on VAPOUR ONLY.
If the ambient temperature falls far enough, with the regulator (and the connecting hose), below the top of the cylinder,
the vapour may condense back to a liquid and be trapped in the regulator and the hose.
This can cause a flare up, the next time your stove is lit up.
I have had this experience with a stove mounted above the cylinder,
but with the hose in a loop below the top of the bottle. A cold night, and a huge flame the next morning. Scary
Happens often with BBQ's
It is therefore vital that any condensed liquids are able to drain back to the cylinder,
by having the regulator above the top of the cylinder.
Jim
oldtrack123 said
07:22 PM Jan 21, 2016
Jamtin wrote:
Hi Radar, My thoughts on the subject. The regulator is designed to reduce the cylinder pressure (typically 880 kPa at 25 deg C, to suit the equipment in your van, (my stove for example operates at 2.75 kPa), and is designed to operate on VAPOUR ONLY. If the ambient temperature falls far enough, with the regulator (and the connecting hose), below the top of the cylinder, the vapour may condense back to a liquid and be trapped in the regulator and the hose. This can cause a flare up, the next time your stove is lit up. I have had this experience with a stove mounted above the cylinder, but with the hose in a loop below the top of the bottle. A cold night, and a huge flame the next morning. Scary Happens often with BBQ's It is therefore vital that any condensed liquids are able to drain back to the cylinder, by having the regulator above the top of the cylinder.
Jim
Hi Jim
Yes, very good thoughts
,There are good reasons for everything that Standards stipulate
hako said
07:46 PM Jan 21, 2016
Jamtin and oldtrack123 - now I understand it better .....nothing worse than saying things must be such and such without an explanation written so the layman can understand..
Thanks.
Radar said
11:17 PM Jan 21, 2016
Ok I will take it to a gas fitter and get him to raise it back up again.
Now can someone repair my ripped shirts for me that get caught on the regulator when I go to the front boot, I not real good with a needle.
TAJ said
04:07 PM Jan 22, 2016
just wondering which way the relief vents face with the bottles in the front area of some
vans from europe
elliemike said
07:01 PM Jan 22, 2016
TAJ wrote:
just wondering which way the relief vents face with the bottles in the front area of some
vans from europe
Also a lot of motorhomes have the Gas Cylinders in an enclosed cabinet, vented to the outside. Which way do you face the valve ?
The cabinet in the HiAce camper we used to have was only Fibreglass I suppose these are fire resistant, are they ?
Hylife said
10:09 PM Jan 22, 2016
I am sorry oldtrack123, I really don't want to get into a he said she said argument with you but not only are you incorrect (in Vic) on what you believe to be the definition of fixed (ie using tools), but you are also way out of date with what you believe to be the National standards/regulations and you are giving out incorrect advice. The entire AS/NZS 5601 was updated in 2013.
I am not sure why you introduced the subject of Low voltage wiring in Victoria since it does not require ANY certification anywhere in Australia nor does it require inspection and testing by a licensed electrician.
Vans only require electrical and gas certification on the day they roll off the production line stating that they meet the required standards of the day. In this respect they are no different to a motorised road vehicle that bears a compliance plate stating the vehicle was manufactured to comply with the Motor Vehicle Standards Act of 1989 or such later versions of that act that was in force as at manufacture date. Should the regs change later they are not retrospective to existing van owners.
If your state requires a roadworthy certificate before your roads authority will register the van then those roadworthy requirements are state based and have absolutely nothing to do with standards or manufacturing regulations.
Pressure regulators CAN be connected directly to the gas bottle without the use of a pigtail.
Regulators ARE NOT required to be mounted veritcally.
Regulators ARE NOT required to be mounted to a rigid surface unless you choose to make the regulator part of the fixed installation.
Please purchase an UP TO DATE copy of the CURRENT AS/NZS 5601.
Radar said
12:02 AM Jan 23, 2016
oldtrack123 wrote:
Regarding the reg being above the bottle so the hose can drain
The regulator must be a two stage regulator mounted vertically to a rigid surface , with vent pointing down.
Hi All.
What is the vent for?
oldtrack123 said
12:39 AM Jan 23, 2016
Hi Hylife
Re your Quote"I am not sure why you introduced the subject of Low voltage wiring in Victoria since it does not require ANY certification anywhere in Australia nor does it require inspection and testing by a licensed electrician[ end Quote]
What a totally ridiculous statement
Well, I HOPE you understand the Gas Standards, BCAUSE YOU CERTAINLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND The electrical Standards AND what" low voltage "covers
Are you a licensed GAS fitter???
And if so perhaps you could give your definition of what SHALL be done by a licensed gas fitter?????
and
Perhaps you could even define what in YOUR opinion is a fixed installation & how such work is defined under the gas regulations for VIC
Re Your "Regulators ARE NOT required to be mounted to a rigid surface unless you choose to make the regulator part of the fixed installation"
And is not a regulator FIXED[ Connected ]directly to the van piping AS in This thread a part of the fixed installation???
.
-
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 23rd of January 2016 12:56:46 AM
oldtrack123 said
01:04 AM Jan 23, 2016
Hi While we wait for hylifes replies , some may find this link of interest
"The only exception to the rule is a simple connection that involves attaching an outlet directly to a gas cylinder such as a connection found on a gas barbecue"
That normally does not require TOOLS
hence ,MY simple definition of what constitutes gasfitters work & Licenced ELECTRICAL work for low voltage & above
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 23rd of January 2016 01:09:43 AM
Radar said
07:03 AM Jan 23, 2016
Thank you all for your replies.
I believe now we have gone a bit to far with your answers about laws governing and no subjections about lowering or placement of the regulator by a qualified gas fitter.
hako said
02:50 PM Jan 23, 2016
Radar wrote:
SNIP
What is the vent for?
That's easy and dumb old me can tell you that - its to vent the regulator to the atmosphere otherwise the diaphragm that operates the pressure valve would not have a pressure reference.
I guess if it was the pointing up crap/rain would enter and block it and the diaphragm would not be able flex properly.
Good Luck.
oldtrack123 said
06:51 PM Jan 23, 2016
hako wrote:
Radar wrote:
SNIP
What is the vent for?
That's easy and dumb old me can tell you that - its to vent the regulator to the atmosphere otherwise the diaphragm that operates the pressure valve would not have a pressure reference.
I guess if it was the pointing up crap/rain would enter and block it and the diaphragm would not be able flex properly.
Good Luck.
Hi
Yes & just add to that ,a diaphragm failure[even a small leak] can lead to gas accumulating inside the cap, that could lead an explosion within the regulator body .
Such an explosion could destroy the diaphragm letting full gas flow loose!
With the vent pointing down & LPG being heavier than air ,such a build up will not occur
Now I wonder if everyone understands how a "GAS FUSE" operates & it's limitations
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 23rd of January 2016 06:59:10 PM
Radar said
11:02 PM Jan 23, 2016
hako wrote:
Radar wrote:
SNIP
What is the vent for?
That's easy and dumb old me can tell you that - its to vent the regulator to the atmosphere otherwise the diaphragm that operates the pressure valve would not have a pressure reference.
I guess if it was the pointing up crap/rain would enter and block it and the diaphragm would not be able flex properly.
Good Luck.
Hako thank you, I thought it was to drain the water out of, just joking.
Dangerously we all know a little more.
Wonder why the powers to be have not designed a better regulator system that can be laid flat.
Hylife said
06:55 PM Jan 24, 2016
oldtrack123.
Low Voltage wiring, (in regards to caravan DC systems, which is after all what we are talking about), is not regulated and requires no certification anywhere in Australia.
Gas licencing is handled by state authorities and varies from state to state. The site you referenced is simply a commercial web site acting as a commission broker to gain work for tradies.
And, again with the issue of gas pressure regulators, there is no need to get upset over the fact that changes have occured and that I pulled you up on this matter of giving out old incorrect information. Change is one of the constants of life. Please purchase a copy of the UP TO DATE AS/NZS 5601 because it all changed in 2013. It is unfortunate that there has not been an actual "Standards Australia" organisation (not to be confused with the actual standards themselves which are colloquially known as Australian Standards) for the last decade, and that the maintaining of these records is now outsourced to a money making enterprise (SAI Global Ltd) by the government, and that you now have to BUY copywrited copies of the standards.
The van piping, usually but not always constructed of brass or copper tubing, is part of the fixed installation but the flexible connection hoses and regulators are NOT. The regulators and flexible connection hoses are able to be replaced and changed at will by the owner without requiring a licensed gas fitter. It is illegal for non-approved gas hoses and pressure regulators to be sold in Australia but you should still check that the product you buy from a store meets the AS/NZS standards. Flexible hoses must have the standard printed into the hose and the pressure regulator has the required standard as part of the metal casting process.
In regards to your question of "is a regulator not fixed when you connect it to the vans piping?". In short the answer is NO, unless you choose to permanently FIX it by mounting it to something like a bracket on the caravan. Many vans do NOT have the regulator fixed in position but rather have the regulator connected directly to the gas bottle/s POL fitting and then a flexible hose runs from the regulator outlet to the vans fixed metal piping. The need to use a tool such as a spanner (shifting crescent) to tighten the regulator to the bottle or the flexible hose to the metal piping to make a gas tight seal, does not make the regulator or flexible hose part of the FIXED installation. Depending on the available space, sometimes regulators with a right angled POL connector are used and this puts the regulator in a vertical position but this vertical positioning is NOT required under the current AS/NZS 5601. Even if you do choose to FIX the regulator to a bracket, the change in the AS/NZS standards in 2013 means that many of the old ways are no longer relevant or required. The old AS/NZS which required a regulator to be mounted in the manner you have suggested, ie, vertical and below or above a certain height no longer apply.
Radar said
10:54 PM Jan 24, 2016
Hylife thank you for taking the time to hopefully set us all straight.
oldtrack123 said
01:01 AM Jan 25, 2016
you stay well clear Hylife wrote:
oldtrack123.
Low Voltage wiring, (in regards to caravan DC systems, which is after all what we are talking about), is not regulated and requires no certification anywhere in Australia.
Gas licencing is handled by state authorities and varies from state to state. The site you referenced is simply a commercial web site acting as a commission broker to gain work for tradies.
And, again with the issue of gas pressure regulators, there is no need to get upset over the fact that changes have occured and that I pulled you up on this matter of giving out old incorrect information. Change is one of the constants of life. Please purchase a copy of the UP TO DATE AS/NZS 5601 because it all changed in 2013. It is unfortunate that there has not been an actual "Standards Australia" organisation (not to be confused with the actual standards themselves which are colloquially known as Australian Standards) for the last decade, and that the maintaining of these records is now outsourced to a money making enterprise (SAI Global Ltd) by the government, and that you now have to BUY copywrited copies of the standards.
The van piping, usually but not always constructed of brass or copper tubing, is part of the fixed installation but the flexible connection hoses and regulators are NOT. The regulators and flexible connection hoses are able to be replaced and changed at will by the owner without requiring a licensed gas fitter. It is illegal for non-approved gas hoses and pressure regulators to be sold in Australia but you should still check that the product you buy from a store meets the AS/NZS standards. Flexible hoses must have the standard printed into the hose and the pressure regulator has the required standard as part of the metal casting process.
In regards to your question of "is a regulator not fixed when you connect it to the vans piping?". In short the answer is NO, unless you choose to permanently FIX it by mounting it to something like a bracket on the caravan. Many vans do NOT have the regulator fixed in position but rather have the regulator connected directly to the gas bottle/s POL fitting and then a flexible hose runs from the regulator outlet to the vans fixed metal piping. The need to use a tool such as a spanner (shifting crescent) to tighten the regulator to the bottle or the flexible hose to the metal piping to make a gas tight seal, does not make the regulator or flexible hose part of the FIXED installation. Depending on the available space, sometimes regulators with a right angled POL connector are used and this puts the regulator in a vertical position but this vertical positioning is NOT required under the current AS/NZS 5601. Even if you do choose to FIX the regulator to a bracket, the change in the AS/NZS standards in 2013 means that many of the old ways are no longer relevant or required. The old AS/NZS which required a regulator to be mounted in the manner you have suggested, ie, vertical and below or above a certain height no longer apply.
Hi
I suggest you stay well clear of what is classed as LOW VOLTAGE ELECTRICS under all AUS ELECTRICAL STANDARDS
Low voltage electrics covers AC voltages exceeding 50V up to medium voltage[ 1Kv]
It also included RIPPLE FREE Dc voltage above 120V
If the Dc has low medium / freq ripple then the same as for AC[anything above 50V]
Yes, Perhaps I should get the New gas Standard but as I am 87, I guess I will not bother.
Perhaps you could post a short Extract of the New Standard indicating regulator mounting ??? ,since the requirements only came in with the 2003 Standards[from memory], so it appears it was pretty short lived.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 25th of January 2016 01:14:03 AM
Jamtin said
10:26 PM Jan 25, 2016
Hi again Radar.... Now page 2, what was your question ?????????????
Radar said
11:37 PM Jan 26, 2016
Jamtin wrote:
Hi again Radar.... Now page 2, what was your question ?????????????
I can not remember and for the love of me don't remember any thi g to do with 12 volt.
Thank you all.
Diggings said
03:23 PM Jan 30, 2016
I had to lift the regulator to top of bottle height to stop gunk going into gas lines and blocking jets in cooktop, raised the regulator and no more problems.
Hi
The problem gets worse when people do not even understand the terminology used in Standards
Some seem to believe the term " fixed " means fixed in position /location
What it really means is a PERMANENT connection, one that requires TOOLS to make, break or change
Not something that can be simply unplugged or removed /undone by hand
My thoughts on the subject.
The regulator is designed to reduce the cylinder pressure (typically 880 kPa at 25 deg C, to suit the equipment in your van,
(my stove for example operates at 2.75 kPa), and is designed to operate on VAPOUR ONLY.
If the ambient temperature falls far enough, with the regulator (and the connecting hose), below the top of the cylinder,
the vapour may condense back to a liquid and be trapped in the regulator and the hose.
This can cause a flare up, the next time your stove is lit up.
I have had this experience with a stove mounted above the cylinder,
but with the hose in a loop below the top of the bottle. A cold night, and a huge flame the next morning. Scary
Happens often with BBQ's
It is therefore vital that any condensed liquids are able to drain back to the cylinder,
by having the regulator above the top of the cylinder.
Jim
Hi Jim
Yes, very good thoughts
,There are good reasons for everything that Standards stipulate
Thanks.
Ok I will take it to a gas fitter and get him to raise it back up again.
Now can someone repair my ripped shirts for me that get caught on the regulator when I go to the front boot, I not real good with a needle.
just wondering which way the relief vents face with the bottles in the front area of some
vans from europe
Also a lot of motorhomes have the Gas Cylinders in an enclosed cabinet, vented to the outside. Which way do you face the valve ?
The cabinet in the HiAce camper we used to have was only Fibreglass I suppose these are fire resistant, are they ?
I am sorry oldtrack123, I really don't want to get into a he said she said argument with you but not only are you incorrect (in Vic) on what you believe to be the definition of fixed (ie using tools), but you are also way out of date with what you believe to be the National standards/regulations and you are giving out incorrect advice. The entire AS/NZS 5601 was updated in 2013.
I am not sure why you introduced the subject of Low voltage wiring in Victoria since it does not require ANY certification anywhere in Australia nor does it require inspection and testing by a licensed electrician.
Vans only require electrical and gas certification on the day they roll off the production line stating that they meet the required standards of the day.
In this respect they are no different to a motorised road vehicle that bears a compliance plate stating the vehicle was manufactured to comply with the Motor Vehicle Standards Act of 1989 or such later versions of that act that was in force as at manufacture date. Should the regs change later they are not retrospective to existing van owners.
If your state requires a roadworthy certificate before your roads authority will register the van then those roadworthy requirements are state based and have absolutely nothing to do with standards or manufacturing regulations.
Pressure regulators CAN be connected directly to the gas bottle without the use of a pigtail.
Regulators ARE NOT required to be mounted veritcally.
Regulators ARE NOT required to be mounted to a rigid surface unless you choose to make the regulator part of the fixed installation.
Please purchase an UP TO DATE copy of the CURRENT AS/NZS 5601.
Hi All.
What is the vent for?
Hi Hylife
Re your Quote"I am not sure why you introduced the subject of Low voltage wiring in Victoria since it does not require ANY certification anywhere in Australia nor does it require inspection and testing by a licensed electrician[ end Quote]
What a totally ridiculous statement
Well, I HOPE you understand the Gas Standards, BCAUSE YOU CERTAINLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND The electrical Standards AND what" low voltage "covers
Are you a licensed GAS fitter???
And if so perhaps you could give your definition of what SHALL be done by a licensed gas fitter?????
and
Perhaps you could even define what in YOUR opinion is a fixed installation & how such work is defined under the gas regulations for VIC
Re Your "Regulators ARE NOT required to be mounted to a rigid surface unless you choose to make the regulator part of the fixed installation"
And is not a regulator FIXED[ Connected ]directly to the van piping AS in This thread a part of the fixed installation???
.
-
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 23rd of January 2016 12:56:46 AM
Hi While we wait for hylifes replies , some may find this link of interest
www.licensedtrades.com.au/licensed/gas-fitter
Take particular note of this sentence
"The only exception to the rule is a simple connection that involves attaching an outlet directly to a gas cylinder such as a connection found on a gas barbecue"
That normally does not require TOOLS
hence ,MY simple definition of what constitutes gasfitters work & Licenced ELECTRICAL work for low voltage & above
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 23rd of January 2016 01:09:43 AM
Thank you all for your replies.
I believe now we have gone a bit to far with your answers about laws governing and no subjections about lowering or placement of the regulator by a qualified gas fitter.
That's easy and dumb old me can tell you that - its to vent the regulator to the atmosphere otherwise the diaphragm that operates the pressure valve would not have a pressure reference.
I guess if it was the pointing up crap/rain would enter and block it and the diaphragm would not be able flex properly.
Good Luck.
Hi
Yes & just add to that ,a diaphragm failure[even a small leak] can lead to gas accumulating inside the cap, that could lead an explosion within the regulator body .
Such an explosion could destroy the diaphragm letting full gas flow loose!
With the vent pointing down & LPG being heavier than air ,such a build up will not occur
Now I wonder if everyone understands how a "GAS FUSE" operates & it's limitations
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 23rd of January 2016 06:59:10 PM
Hako thank you, I thought it was to drain the water out of, just joking.
Dangerously we all know a little more.
Wonder why the powers to be have not designed a better regulator system that can be laid flat.
oldtrack123.
Low Voltage wiring, (in regards to caravan DC systems, which is after all what we are talking about), is not regulated and requires no certification anywhere in Australia.
Gas licencing is handled by state authorities and varies from state to state. The site you referenced is simply a commercial web site acting as a commission broker to gain work for tradies.
And, again with the issue of gas pressure regulators, there is no need to get upset over the fact that changes have occured and that I pulled you up on this matter of giving out old incorrect information. Change is one of the constants of life. Please purchase a copy of the UP TO DATE AS/NZS 5601 because it all changed in 2013.
It is unfortunate that there has not been an actual "Standards Australia" organisation (not to be confused with the actual standards themselves which are colloquially known as Australian Standards) for the last decade, and that the maintaining of these records is now outsourced to a money making enterprise (SAI Global Ltd) by the government, and that you now have to BUY copywrited copies of the standards.
You can buy copies of all the current up to date gas standards from here.
http://infostore.saiglobal.com/store/results2.aspx?keyword=5601&Db=AS&searchType=simple&Status=all&publisher=AS&Max=15&Search=Proceed
The van piping, usually but not always constructed of brass or copper tubing, is part of the fixed installation but the flexible connection hoses and regulators are NOT. The regulators and flexible connection hoses are able to be replaced and changed at will by the owner without requiring a licensed gas fitter.
It is illegal for non-approved gas hoses and pressure regulators to be sold in Australia but you should still check that the product you buy from a store meets the AS/NZS standards. Flexible hoses must have the standard printed into the hose and the pressure regulator has the required standard as part of the metal casting process.
In regards to your question of "is a regulator not fixed when you connect it to the vans piping?". In short the answer is NO, unless you choose to permanently FIX it by mounting it to something like a bracket on the caravan.
Many vans do NOT have the regulator fixed in position but rather have the regulator connected directly to the gas bottle/s POL fitting and then a flexible hose runs from the regulator outlet to the vans fixed metal piping. The need to use a tool such as a spanner (shifting crescent) to tighten the regulator to the bottle or the flexible hose to the metal piping to make a gas tight seal, does not make the regulator or flexible hose part of the FIXED installation. Depending on the available space, sometimes regulators with a right angled POL connector are used and this puts the regulator in a vertical position but this vertical positioning is NOT required under the current AS/NZS 5601.
Even if you do choose to FIX the regulator to a bracket, the change in the AS/NZS standards in 2013 means that many of the old ways are no longer relevant or required. The old AS/NZS which required a regulator to be mounted in the manner you have suggested, ie, vertical and below or above a certain height no longer apply.
Hylife thank you for taking the time to hopefully set us all straight.
Hi
I suggest you stay well clear of what is classed as LOW VOLTAGE ELECTRICS under all AUS ELECTRICAL STANDARDS
Low voltage electrics covers AC voltages exceeding 50V up to medium voltage[ 1Kv]
It also included RIPPLE FREE Dc voltage above 120V
If the Dc has low medium / freq ripple then the same as for AC[anything above 50V]
Yes, Perhaps I should get the New gas Standard
but as I am 87, I guess I will not bother.
Perhaps you could post a short Extract of the New Standard indicating regulator mounting ??? ,since the requirements only came in with the 2003 Standards[from memory], so it appears it was pretty short lived.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 25th of January 2016 01:14:03 AM
I can not remember and for the love of me don't remember any thi g to do with 12 volt.
Thank you all.
www.esv.vic.gov.au/Portals/0/Gas%20Professionals/Files/ESV%20-%20ASNZS5601_Road%20show_presentation_2014.pdf
See Page on Regulator HEIGHT
https://www.dnrm.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/238636/standards-gas-installations-caravans-boats.pdf
For Gas Fitter work,,page 9 of this may be interesting
https://www.dnrm.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/221714/qld-gas-work-licence-authorisation-requirements.pdf
And This
http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Tradespeople/Gasfitters.page
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 31st of January 2016 12:06:24 AM