oldtrack................you are right......my setup is illegal but I've been running it for a long long time and hey.............so is downloading music from the internet!! But it goes on!!
By the way............the SpencerGulf Prawns that I am munching on are absolutely Beautiful!!
How long since you were a LICENCED electrician??
DUCKS love PRAWNS!!
Merry Christmas to you mate
oldtrack123 said
05:25 PM Dec 23, 2009
JRH wrote:
I have a short lead with a 10 amp male one end and a 15 amp female the other end, this is used to fire up the fridge prior to leaving on a trip.
It is used soley for that purpose, not even the lights are used as I have a 12 volt system for that. Now this may strictly be illegal but where is the harm when all due care and attention is taken, I am sure the fridge alone does not exceed the 10 amp circuit.
Hi JRH
AS YOU SAY ,it is not legal . While you may know & monitor it's use to prevent overload if others gain access to it, they may not be aware of or understood that it is not legal & it's limitations. you will not be thrown in jail for possessing one but in the event of an accident could be in serious trouble for using an illegal unapproved devise. you could forfeit your insurance in the case of fire etc.
oldtrack123 said
05:43 PM Dec 23, 2009
Disco Duck wrote:
How long since you were a LICENCED electrician?? Merry Christmas to you mate
Hi Disco If you mean licenced/qualified , then still am. If you mean licenced contractor, until about 12yrs ago when I retired But Still keeping up to date& involved thru my son,Who does have a current contractor's licence. I wish all would understand ,My posts are not aimed personally @ anyone .I am & always will point out illegal electrical practises & explain how & why so . If one wishes to their way that is then up to them . I cannot force them to change Merry Xmas to you & ALL forum members
Basil Faulty said
05:55 PM Dec 23, 2009
So just to get this straight in my warped mind, this device is the same as the $50 RCD from Bunnings but it is superior in operation because it complies with the Australian standards? I mean it does not let you pull 15 amp thru a 10 amp GPO does it?
A picture on this site shows the device mounted in a weatherproof enclosure. It also emphasises that it is legal. This is probably achieved by having a 10amp circuit breaker fitted within the unit (I'm assuming this) thus limiting the maximum current to 10 amps. It may (I'm only guessing this) have an RCD (aka earth leakage or "safety switch) fitted as well.
Note that they quote a price of $239 so you'd want more than just a plug and a socket for this money
oldtrack123 said
06:25 PM Dec 23, 2009
Basil Faulty wrote:
So just to get this straight in my warped mind, this device is the same as the $50 RCD from Bunnings but it is superior in operation because it complies with the Australian standards? I mean it does not let you pull 15 amp thru a 10 amp GPO does it?
Hi Basil No .it is nothing like the things @ Bunnings THAT is the whole point Have Anyone seen one @ Bunnings with a10a PLUG & 15a SOCKET. I certainly have not. Modifying Bunninss by changing plugs does make it illegal that is the .& there are other factors involved as well , which elecricians will understand. i DO NOT INTEND TO POST THOSE DIFFERRENCES AS IT COULD LEAD TO FURTHER ATTEMPTS @ MODIFICATION
Basil Faulty said
06:26 PM Dec 23, 2009
Indeed you would want more than a plug and socket with an RCD in the middle... The Bunnings ones are already in a weather proof ruggedised container.... As I discovered to my amazement you can work on your caravan yourself as it is technically "a plug in device". I recently had strife with the 240 v on my van and I got a sparky to fix the problem and I asked him about inspection for the rewiring and he said that Caravans were exempt....
oldtrack123 said
06:47 PM Dec 23, 2009
Basil Faulty wrote:
... As I discovered to my amazement you can work on your caravan yourself as it is technically "a plug in device". I recently had strife with the 240 v on my van and I got a sparky to fix the problem and I asked him about inspection for the rewiring and he said that Caravans were exempt....
Hi Basil That is totally incorrect as I have said There are a lot of Electricians who do not know the RULES The van is not simply a plug in devise. IT is under the regs classed as a portable/mobile building & a special set Aust Standards rules apply to such . The lecy obviously is not up to date or has limited knowledge of his field I would strongly advise you & anyone employing a lecy for van work to ask do they know there are a set of special rules if they don't, give them the flick fast . They could do some dangerous things. All fixed 240v wiring if to be connected to mains HAS to be carried out by a suitably qualified lecy in accordance with the RULES
Re inspection Most states have Self regulation where it is the responsibility of the lecky to certify, on paper, that he has checked & tested his work & it complieswith the requirements of the RULES This unfortunately has lead to some dangerous & sometimes stupid things being done
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 23rd of December 2009 06:49:04 PM
JRH said
07:19 PM Dec 23, 2009
Disco Duck wrote:
I'm with you JRH .......for once we agree :)
I have the same as you......only mine IS legal!! It is legal because the wire was legally bought. 3 core....no less. The ten and fifteen amp plug and socket were legally bought and an electrician made it up for me.
Hey DD,
My cable was made up by a licensed electritian, the cable is 3 core 15 amp, the plug and socket were supplied and fitted by the sparky.
Yes it does have a 10 amp circuit breaker fitted and yes it does have an RCD fitted and yes it does comply with the SAA Rules.
oldtrack123 said
07:59 PM Dec 23, 2009
JRH wrote:
"Hey DD,
My cable was made up by a licensed electritian, the cable is 3 core 15 amp, the plug and socket were supplied and fitted by the sparky."
Hi JRH
Whether made by a sparky or not it is STILL ILLEGAL
Just a further indication of the greed or incompetancy of many so called sparkys who do not know the rules of their trade or are prepared to break them, without considering the possible consequences Many are simlpy house wirers with little knowledge on other subjects You find good & bad just as in all trades /proffesions.
JRH said
08:14 PM Dec 23, 2009
oldtrack123 wrote:
JRH wrote:
"Hey DD,
My cable was made up by a licensed electritian, the cable is 3 core 15 amp, the plug and socket were supplied and fitted by the sparky."
Hi JRH
Whether made by a sparky or not it is STILL ILLEGAL
Just a further indication of the greed or incompetancy of many so called sparkys who do not know the rules of their trade or are prepared to break them, without considering the possible consequences Many are simlpy house wirers with little knowledge on other subjects You find good & bad just as in all trades /proffesions.
I have already stated it is illegal, I know it is illegal but then so is driving under the influence. If someone else steals my cable, because that is the only way they will get their hands on it, then I am not responsible for whatever use they may put it to.
DeBe said
10:03 PM Dec 23, 2009
I bet its the legality that makes this Amphibian thing so dam expensive, for nothing more than a box with an RCD & a Relay & 2 Plugs. Wot I call a Ripoff. Daryl
jimricho said
09:24 AM Dec 24, 2009
DeBe wrote:
I bet its the legality that makes this Amphibian thing so dam expensive, for nothing more than a box with an RCD & a Relay & 2 Plugs. Wot I call a Ripoff. Daryl
Got no argument from me on that Daryl!
I'll continue to be naughty and use my (not legally) modified 10 amp extension when I'm at home to charge my van battery and occasionally run the fridge. I do plug it into an HPM "Electrosafe" 4 outlet power block that is OHS approved for construction sites and provides all the protection of the "Amp-fibian"
I seem to recall that the "Electrosafe" also not cheap.
Disco Duck said
10:35 AM Dec 24, 2009
Jimricho...........you have the safety switch in your house??.............where's the problem if you plug in using your cable??
-- Edited by Disco Duck on Thursday 24th of December 2009 09:36:46 AM
dave06 said
10:42 AM Dec 24, 2009
and another in your van!
a stupid question for all you naughty folks, if you unplug your air-con then there would be nothing in your van capable of drawing anywhere near 15 amps would there???
the way it has been explained to me the cable must be capable of carrying the expected load plus a "safety" margin, if the load is only expected to be of say below 8 amps why is the 15 amp required at all irrespective of the 15 amp plug on the van and the legalitys of it!
thats a bit like using a 55 ton low loader to transport a mini!
Disco Duck said
10:49 AM Dec 24, 2009
Popeye.........
It would be appreciated if you would refrain from asking any more questions on Techies corner. I am still sweeping up the fur and the bull sh*t that was flying around. We even had a little of the "I am holier than thou"....................probably not a bad thing when you consider the time of year.
In future.....any questions that you have should be directed to the Just Joking section.
Thanks
DD
oldtrack123 said
11:04 AM Dec 24, 2009
dave06 wrote:
and another in your van!
Hi Dave
You may not be aware that all vans & motor homes on the road are not fitted with RCDs or overload cbs. Since it a relatively new rule I believe it would be ok to say the majority do not have them fitted.!!!!
As an ex master builder You had rules /standards to build to Did you say their bu**^#it & not follow them .Why can't' you understand these rule [Elect] fit the same catergory ????, Except the risks are much higher.!!! Re cable size etc Many other high power devises can./are used in vans etc ,such as elect jugs kettles clothes irons
I accept that people who know the max load they can use ,may monitor use. But the lead is not legal & all the arguing in the world will not make it legal.!!
Do not trust what some elecricians say, no matter how nice or accommadating they be. Many have limited knowledge out of their field which often is house wiring,/ I have already pointed out there are specific rules covering portable buildings which includes caravans & motor Many electrician are not even aware of the existance of these set of rules it is another standard they would have to buy
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 10:26:41 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 10:44:54 AM
dave06 said
11:06 AM Dec 24, 2009
yep! wrong of me to assume, I stand corrected!
oldtrack123 said
11:32 AM Dec 24, 2009
Disco Duck wrote:
Jimricho...........you have the safety switch in your house??.............where's the problem if you plug in using your cable??
-- Edited by Disco Duck on Thursday 24th of December 2009 09:36:46 AM
Hi Disco Sorry but a false asumption
. The great majority of homes are not fitted with an RCD.
It has been compulsory on new homes for several years but older homes only need to have one fitted if ANY additional elect work is done
oldtrack123 said
11:42 AM Dec 24, 2009
jimricho wrote:
I'll continue to be naughty and use my (not legally) modified 10 amp extension when I'm at home to charge my van battery and occasionally run the fridge. I do plug it into an HPM "Electrosafe" 4 outlet power block that is OHS approved for construction sites and provides all the protection of the "Amp-fibian"
I seem to recall that the "Electrosafe" also not cheap.
Hi Jim
I may be wrong But I am sure you will find that the Electrosafe is only a portable RCD devise . It does not have an overload cb
dave06 said
11:50 AM Dec 24, 2009
I truly cant be bothered anymore, you simply refuse to read the posts, there is no kettle or iron or anything else on, only the fridge for pretrip warm up, end of story!
-- Edited by dave06 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 12:52:48 PM
jimricho said
03:44 PM Dec 24, 2009
oldtrack123 wrote:
Hi Jim
I may be wrong But I am sure you will find that the Electrosafe is only a portable RCD devise . It does not have an overload cb
Yep...sure does.....
and with a half ways decent fault current capacity not like those wimpy little push button thingies built into the el cheapo power boards
PS: Is this the record number of responses to a post on techies corner????
-- Edited by jimricho on Thursday 24th of December 2009 02:48:18 PM
dave06 said
04:01 PM Dec 24, 2009
thats a better one than we used on site mate, ours had four outlets and had a push button thingy on it, mind you from memory they were $160 odd dollars way back then
and yes I think this is a record,
it's a very controversial subject as it affects us all, we must have a cold fridge before we head out!
just a matter of getting the safety message out without causing too much animosity or beligerence
the ones built into the power board are basically an "overload" cutout arent they, I didnt think they had anything to do with earth leakage!
Disco Duck said
04:29 PM Dec 24, 2009
DaveO.......if the earth is leaking................Plug it up !!!
Can't be too hard can it??
oldtrack123 said
04:47 PM Dec 24, 2009
jimricho wrote:
and with a half ways decent fault current capacity not like those wimpy little push button thingies built into the el cheapo power boards PS: Is this the record number of responses to a post on techies corner????
-- Edited by jimricho on Thursday 24th of December 2009 02:48:18 PM
HI Jim I got that one wrong. Should not always rely on memory I think you will find little differance in price between what still amounts to an illegal combination & the legal product. Yes I know the Electrosafe has other uses & some may already pocess one
.Yes it now will protect the 10a power point BUT you STILL have an illegal lead 10a plug<15a socket . Yes I know you keep the illegal lead under lock & key etc & only you will ever use it.
Just a further point re the RCD thread , the electrosafe RCD is not effective on portable genys
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 04:03:18 PM
jimricho said
06:17 PM Dec 24, 2009
As I alluded to earlier I'm well aware that the 10 > 15 amp lead is a bit naughty in a legal sense but I'm buggered if I'm going to pay an arm and a leg for a dedicated 15 amp GPO installation when all I would use it for is to pre cool the fridge and run the occasional power tool.
I do use a proper approved 15 amp caravan lead (unmodified) in the caravan parks.
Re the geny...debe put me straight on the RCD issue, I don't own a geny as I don't very often free camp apart from the occasional bush camp. I'm not set up for roadside free camping as I only have a small rig (Goldstream Crown wind up)
My only experience with generators is with stationary 3 phase diesel units used to back up the mains in the event of power blackouts.
oldtrack123 said
11:57 PM Dec 24, 2009
Hi All
I have an apology to make. , I have found that Clipsal now make a power board #485P3CB30
It is 10amp protected by RCD & 10amp 0lcb & has 2x10amp outlets & 1x15 amp outlet It is not weatherproof so is unsuitable for outdoors locations but certainly allows the use of a standard 15 amp lead & in that sense is quite legal The cost is around $200 so not much difference between it & the Ampfibian which is weatherproof
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 11:03:36 PM
oldtrack123 said
12:16 AM Dec 25, 2009
Re the geny...debe put me straight on the RCD issue, I don't own a geny as I don't very often free camp apart from the occasional bush camp. I'm not set up for roadside free camping as I only have a small rig (Goldstream Crown wind up)
My only experience with generators is with stationary 3 phase diesel units used to back up the mains in the event of power blackouts.
Hio Jim
I can absolutely assure that A portable RCD nor your van RCD will work with a fully isolated geny or power source As Daryl said there is no return earth path.They can operate if the geny/ inverter can be modified but all are not suitable& the RCD has to be permanently fixed & wired to the geny.
The large genys like that are not simply plugged in they are connected as an MEN system .sy
dave06 said
10:00 AM Dec 25, 2009
so even though you argued blindly that I was tottally wrong and clipsal dont make them yaddah!! yaddah!! yaddah!.............you have now found out that it is in fact you who is in the wrong, and clipsal DO in fact make them!!
dear!! oh dear!!! you really should get all the "facts" before shooting your mouth off shouldnt you!! it would save so much embarrasment on your behalf, as I said just because you dont know of them doesnt mean they dont exist!!
put the info out in a friendly manner and be ready to be proven wrong because you arent the only chook in the pen with qualifications and years of experience,
many silent ones in here with as many years of service as you have, they just dont like your tone! and dont wish to get tied up in the hubris
just on your other little "rave" we have toasters and kettles and hair dryers in our house and guess what buddy, they all run off 10 amp.
safety and the law dont always go hand in hand either, look at the gun industry and the car industry, more people die through them than have ever been electrocuted
hey Jim, watch those numbers climb now!!!!!!!!
AS YOU SAY ,it is not legal .
While you may know & monitor it's use to prevent overload if others gain access to it, they may not be aware of or understood that it is not legal & it's limitations.
you will not be thrown in jail for possessing one but in the event of an accident could be in serious trouble for using an illegal unapproved devise.
you could forfeit your insurance in the case of fire etc.
Hi Disco
If you mean licenced/qualified , then still am.
If you mean licenced contractor, until about 12yrs ago
when I retired
But Still keeping up to date& involved thru my son,Who does have a current contractor's licence.
I wish all would understand ,My posts are not aimed personally @ anyone
.I am & always will point out illegal electrical practises & explain how & why so .
If one wishes to their way that is then up to them
. I cannot force them to change
Merry Xmas to you & ALL forum members
A picture on this site shows the device mounted in a weatherproof enclosure. It also emphasises that it is legal. This is probably achieved by having a 10amp circuit breaker fitted within the unit (I'm assuming this) thus limiting the maximum current to 10 amps.
It may (I'm only guessing this) have an RCD (aka earth leakage or "safety switch) fitted as well.
Note that they quote a price of $239 so you'd want more than just a plug and a socket for this money
No .it is nothing like the things @ Bunnings THAT is the whole point Have Anyone seen one @ Bunnings with a10a PLUG & 15a SOCKET.
I certainly have not.
Modifying Bunninss by changing plugs does make it illegal that is the .& there are other factors involved as well , which elecricians will understand.
i DO NOT INTEND TO POST THOSE DIFFERRENCES AS IT COULD LEAD TO FURTHER ATTEMPTS @ MODIFICATION
As I discovered to my amazement you can work on your caravan yourself as it is technically "a plug in device". I recently had strife with the 240 v on my van and I got a sparky to fix the problem and I asked him about inspection for the rewiring and he said that Caravans were exempt....
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 23rd of December 2009 06:49:04 PM
My cable was made up by a licensed electritian, the cable is 3 core 15 amp, the plug and socket were supplied and fitted by the sparky.
Yes it does have a 10 amp circuit breaker fitted and yes it does have an RCD fitted and yes it does comply with the SAA Rules.
Whether made by a sparky or not it is STILL ILLEGAL
Just a further indication of the greed or incompetancy of many so called sparkys who do not know the rules of their trade or are prepared to break them, without considering the possible consequences
Many are simlpy house wirers with little knowledge on other subjects
You find good & bad just as in all trades /proffesions.
I'll continue to be naughty and use my (not legally) modified 10 amp extension when I'm at home to charge my van battery and occasionally run the fridge. I do plug it into an HPM "Electrosafe" 4 outlet power block that is OHS approved for construction sites and provides all the protection of the "Amp-fibian"
I seem to recall that the "Electrosafe" also not cheap.
-- Edited by Disco Duck on Thursday 24th of December 2009 09:36:46 AM
Hi Dave
You may not be aware that all vans & motor homes on the road are not fitted with RCDs or overload cbs.
Since it a relatively new rule I believe it would be ok to say the majority do not have them fitted.!!!!
As an ex master builder You had rules /standards to build to Did you say their bu**^#it & not follow them
.Why can't' you understand these rule [Elect] fit the same catergory ????,
Except the risks are much higher.!!!
Re cable size etc Many other high power devises can./are used in vans etc ,such as elect jugs kettles clothes irons
I accept that people who know the max load they can use ,may monitor use.
But the lead is not legal & all the arguing in the world will not make it legal.!!
Do not trust what some elecricians say, no matter how nice or accommadating they be.
Many have limited knowledge out of their field which often is house wiring,/
I have already pointed out there are specific rules covering portable buildings which includes caravans & motor
Many electrician are not even aware of the existance of these set of rules it is another standard they would have to buy
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 10:26:41 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 10:44:54 AM
Sorry but a false asumption
.
The great majority of homes are not fitted with an RCD.
It has been compulsory on new homes for several years but older homes only need to have one fitted if ANY additional elect work is done
I truly cant be bothered anymore, you simply refuse to read the posts, there is no kettle or iron or anything else on, only the fridge for pretrip warm up, end of story!
-- Edited by dave06 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 12:52:48 PM
PS: Is this the record number of responses to a post on techies corner????
-- Edited by jimricho on Thursday 24th of December 2009 02:48:18 PM
I got that one wrong. Should not always rely on memory
I think you will find little differance in price between what still amounts to an illegal combination & the legal product.
Yes I know the Electrosafe has other uses & some may already pocess one
.Yes it now will protect the 10a power point BUT you STILL have an illegal lead 10a plug<15a socket .
Yes I know you keep the illegal lead under lock & key etc & only you will ever use it.
Just a further point re the RCD thread , the electrosafe RCD is not effective on portable genys
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 04:03:18 PM
Hi All
I have an apology to make.
, I have found that Clipsal now make a power board
#485P3CB30
It is 10amp protected by RCD & 10amp 0lcb & has 2x10amp outlets & 1x15 amp outlet
It is not weatherproof so is unsuitable for outdoors locations but certainly allows the use of a standard 15 amp lead & in that sense is quite legal
The cost is around $200 so not much difference between it & the Ampfibian which is weatherproof
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 24th of December 2009 11:03:36 PM
I can absolutely assure that A portable RCD nor your van RCD will work with a fully isolated geny or power source
As Daryl said there is no return earth path.They can operate if the geny/ inverter can be modified but all are not suitable& the RCD has to be permanently fixed & wired to the geny.
The large genys like that are not simply plugged in they are connected as an MEN system .sy