The lead news item tonight was a story about a gang of youths, some as young as 14, who were walking along a Mornington pier....pushed a elderly man off the pier into the water.

The man couldn't swim and had to be rescued by shocked onlookers.

The youths who were laughing, uploaded the vision to their social media(as you do)

When I was a teenager, I was a bit sulky and gave my parents a bit of a hard time for a short time....but I would never think of doing some thing like that.

The majority of kids are OK, but there are a lot who are little ****s.

And when they get a bit older, their into drugs.

Rant over.

Collo.

That will be easy to charge them all.

& while at probably endless other incidences.

The answer.

The birch. (liberally applied)

I agree Phil,the day they done away with the birch ,is the day it all started to fall apart.

Blues Man wrote:

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I agree Phil,the day they done away with the birch ,is the day it all started to fall apart.

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Whenever some nasty deed occurs the first reaction is always to inflict as much punishment, the more brutal the better, but it does not work. Revenge is not and has never been part of society's way of punishing wrong doers, especially juveniles.

It has been the case for centuries that the first response in relation to juveniles especially, is rehabilitation and an attempt to divert from the justice system. If this does not work then incarceration will follow if any further offences are committed.

Flogging kids with a stick or anything else does not work. Have a look at our most dangerous and vicious crims and they all have one thing in common. Physical violence received either in the home or in boy's shelters, most times both. It breeds violence and releases on society very dangerous people.

Australia's youth incarceration rate is now somewhere around 4500 juveniles in custody. this is double as to what it was say twenty years ago. The ages range from as young as ten to seventeen years of age. There are even juveniles serving custodial sentence in adult prisons. How do you reckon they will come out when released.

The new gaol in the NT is now overflowing with the old gaol now the new juvenile centre. It too is chockers and the crime rate continues to increase. If someone stole my car, broke into my home or assaulted one of my family members I would want them lynched, but it doesn't work. Violence and criminal activity is not cured by state inflicted violence or brutal revenge.

The only hope and somewhat futile is to treat the cause, not belt up the result.

DMaxer wrote:

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Australia's youth incarceration rate is now somewhere around 4500 juveniles in custody. this is double as to what it was say twenty years ago.

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Why is it only double? Juvenile crime is MUCH more of a problem than it was 20 years ago and it seems is increasing year by year. With growth in population and much higher crime rate for juveniles, why aren't the numbers 10 times as many as then. Clearly, something is not working.

To suggest that bringing back physical punishment would help is too simplisitic. And the downside of greater incarceration rates has negatives because of what they learn from other inmates.

But there needs to be greater disincentives. Once youngsters start on petty crime and realise there are negligiblle repurcussions, that behaviour becomes the norm. By the time they are past the juvenile detention age they are far more likely to be hardened criminals used to that style of living.

Spot on Magnarc. As for the bleeding lefties who advocate the diversionary approach, it's not working and crime rates are rising, kids intent on crime are well aware of lack of consequences for their actions. A single stroke of the cane (repeat as necessary) would deter 80% of them, the other 20% of hardcore offenders were going to jail anyway.

I think a few people on this forum need to stop listening to talk back radio and SKY news and get a grip on reality. Crime has been on the rise since the First Fleet arrived and gangs of no hopers have been around since shortly thereafter. I remember as a kid growing up there were bodgies and widgies, rockers, skin heads, punks, home boys etc. Every generation has a group of anti social, ill disciplined, uncontrolled youths.  It is just a fact of life with the important thing being how are they treated and controlled. Daily bashings in some boys' home is not the answer. If it worked, why didn't the crime rate drop when it was in vogue.

As far as sentencing being too light, that is also a nonsense. I know when I first practised law back in the seventies, people convicted of murder would be sentenced to life and be back out on licence after maybe five to six years. Armed robbers would receive about three max whilst break and enter merchants would get about six months. I remember some of the shockign crimes, particularly Janine Baldwin's rape and murder back in the late eighties. Four of the five were youths. Anita Cobby, Virginia Morse all were horrific. In those times people were sentenced to life with no mention of parole yet a few years later they could be released. It was such that the sentencing judges would make strong statements in their judgment that parole boards should not deliver any consideration. All this changed in the early nineties when Truth in Sentencing legislation was brought in and life meant life, ten years meant ten years, that was when it changed.

I recall back in those "good old days" people who beat their wife went unpunished as the police regarded the act as "just a domestic issue" with no action taken. People who caused the death of another with a king hit were treated as "just a fight that went a bit wrong" and would get maybe two to three years for manslaughter and released after about six months. Try it now, the starting point is about 8 years with no early release.

I have appeared in hundreds of sentences over the years and the regime now in place is the toughest I have ever witnessed. The sentences are heavy, if they back off, the Crown appeals. The ones that may seem light at first blush have a reason. Maybe there were circumstances, maybe the defendant has helped the police in something much more serious, many reasons. If there were not cogent reasons the Crown would have appealed and their appeal would have been upheld.

We have more people in custody now as a percentage of the population than ever before. Our numbers in custody both juvenile and adult are the most on record. At no time in the past have we had either more juveniles in custody as both a number and a percentage as we do now.

If i was to proffer a reason as to why there is so much juvenile crime I can think of a couple of reasons. The parenting of our generation leaves a lot to be desired. Kids seem to be treated as the parents' friend, not their child. Secondly, I don't think we have the same standard of police as we did in earlier years. I remember as a kid that the police were always active with the young kids, They would come to our school and have a chat, stop us in the street and ask us how things were going. They would stop where we were playing sport, have a look, give us a wave and off they would go. We had Police Boys Clubs, barbeques, the lot.

I think the police of today have a very hard job. They deal with difficult and dangerous people and witness hideous events and people at their worst. What I have found however, is the number of aggressive female officers who seem to have watched too many American police shows and male officers who are just too lazy or incompetent to do their job. It is so easy to say "we can't do anything" or "we aren't allowed to touch them" when they can. I think most do an excellent job but there are some that let down the side. My old dad was a police officer for years and I still have family and friends who are serving members. I am not alone in my views.

It is easy to find no hopers and blame everyone else. I still think the youth of today are just as good, if not better, than we all were at a similar age.

DMaxer, thanks for the well written and presumably accurate piece. I have little to disagree with what you said.

But I think you are not taking account of what happens in the early years of a child's life. We are often told how those early years are very formative in a child's development. You said "The parenting of our generation leaves a lot to be desired."

In my opinion that is the primary root cause of problems, but in many cases the parents have all the best intentions. Lack of care and parenting is probably the greatest contributor to misbehaviour, but I think almost as much is the manner of raising children in regards to discipline, both at home and at school.

I have a 5 year granddaughter. Her mother was telling me the story of visiting her friend's house, and another girl bit my granddaughter. The well meaning parent of the other girl very gently spoke to her, in a warm friendly voice, telling her it was not a nice thing to do. No stern voice. No real repercussions. 30 seconds later it was all forgotten, except my granddaughter was still screaming.

So this 5 year old has learnt that biting a friend is hardly a problem. The same for other misbehaviours, and the pattern sets in. As children grow up and misbehaviours continue to go with minimal repercussions they are not learning that this is unacceptable behaviour.

Another family member, a 10 year old girl, was telling the story about disruptive students. They go unpunished, but good behaviour is rewarded. That all sounds (sort of) acceptable. Give carrot rather than stick. But the disruptive kids have learnt that if they are very disruptive and then show a little improvement, they are the ones to get the rewards. They are rewarded for improvement, while those who are never disruptive miss out.

When it moves on to early teens, thefts, vandalism and other minor crime result in minimal repercussions. By now it is too late. Such behaviour has become a pattern of life. If a 12 year old has been stealing cars and joyriding without meaningful consequence, what is going to change that behaviour as they get older? Nothing, because they have had much adventure and will always want to take it to the next level. What begins as adventure becomes a way of life. And that way of life, with peers who want to outdo each other, the adventures become worse and worse. The way of life is set in and the adrenaline rush is always a goal.

The solution is far from easy but I believe there should be more focus on meaningful discipline from toddler age. For those whose parents don't care, there need to be consequences to address what their parents fail to do, whether that be at school or with juvenile justice. The softly softly approach is failing.

I think there is merit in both Dmaxer's & & AWL's posts.

I do not believe that corporal punishment is an effective solution in the long term - violence begets violence.

Nevertheless the behaviour of the youths on the pier is of a most serious nature & they should be subject to the full weight of the law. Assault at a minimum, attempted murder or manslaughter maybe. And there should be charges brought to all involved in the filming & sharing of the footage.

Us sitting around & pointing fingers of blame will achieve nothing. it is too late for that. This is the result of the sort of societal changes we have all accepted, whether we like those changes or not. Often probably not, but we have still accepted them by rationalising that it is not our problem, it is someone elses. This has changed since we were children. The individual's responsibility to society has lessened & for that we are all responsible.

Blaming parents who's own parents lacked parenting skills, for their parenting of children today, whilst understandable is shouting into the wind. The voice doesn't carry.

We all know that kids learn from having meaningful consequences imposed for unacceptable behaviours, that clear & consistent boundaries need to be set. And that it is part of the job of young people to constantly test those boundaries as part of their development into grown adults who are useful contributors to our society.

Except we don't all know these things & most of us who do, don't know how guide those who don't. Bottom line is that young people who do not get what hey need, push boundaries increasingly further & we (society) tend to react only when it is really too late. The non swimmer old man could easily have been killed.  Those young people will have been out of control for some time, probably for years. Thankfully they are not representative of most young people, but that doesn't mean that there are not too many young people who are out of control & causing problems. 

Feeling out of control is not a pleasant thing for anyone, it is a scary feeling for most, regardless of the bravado overlay. When behaviours reach a point where the lives of others are not valued, chances are that not only are the perpetrators out of control but need those controls placed on them. That is a relatively easy thing to do, by removing their freedoms & applying consequences. Relative that is to acting earlier to prevent things getting to the point of incarceration. The reason it is so difficult is because it is 'someone elses' responsibility. And yet whilst we recognise the lack in parenting skills often we (society) are rather less good at providing what is needed & much better at simply pointing fingers of blame. And so it continues. 

-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 18th of January 2024 12:35:09 PM

Magnarc wrote:

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The answer.

The birch. (liberally applied)

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I agree.

peter67 wrote:

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Spot on Magnarc. As for the bleeding lefties who advocate the diversionary approach, it's not working and crime rates are rising, kids intent on crime are well aware of lack of consequences for their actions. A single stroke of the cane (repeat as necessary) would deter 80% of them, the other 20% of hardcore offenders were going to jail anyway.

-- Edited by peter67 on Wednesday 17th of January 2024 10:44:10 AM

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I agree.

Cuppa wrote:

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I think there is merit in both Dmaxer's & & AWL's posts.

I do not believe that corporal punishment is an effective solution in the long term - violence begets violence.

Nevertheless the behaviour of the youths on the pier is of a most serious nature & they should be subject to the full weight of the law. Assault at a minimum, attempted murder or manslaughter maybe. And there should be charges brought to all involved in the filming & sharing of the footage.

Us sitting around & pointing fingers of blame will achieve nothing. it is too late for that. This is the result of the sort of societal changes we have all accepted, whether we like those changes or not. Often probably not, but we have still accepted them by rationalising that it is not our problem, it is someone elses. This has changed since we were children. The individual's responsibility to society has lessened & for that we are all responsible.

Blaming parents who's own parents lacked parenting skills, for their parenting of children today, whilst understandable is shouting into the wind. The voice doesn't carry.

We all know that kids learn from having meaningful consequences imposed for unacceptable behaviours, that clear & consistent boundaries need to be set. And that it is part of the job of young pople to constantly test those boundaries as part of their development into grown adults who are useful contributors to our society.

Except we don't all know these things & most of us who do, don't know how guide those who don't. Bottom line is that young people who do not get what hey need, push boundaries imcreasinly further & we (society) tends to react only when it is really too late. The non swimmer old man could easily have been killed.  Those young people will have been out of control for some time, probably for years. Thankfully they are not representative of most young people, but that doesn't mean that there are not too many young people who are out of control & causing problems. 

Feeling out of control is not a pleasant thing for anyone, it is a scary feeling for most, regardless of the bravado overlay. When behaviours reach a point where the lives of others are not valued, chances are that not only are the perpetrators out of control but need those controls placed on them. That is a relatively easy thing to do, by removing their freedoms & applying consequences. Relative that is to acting earlier to prevent things getting to the point of incarceration. The reason it is so difficult is because it is 'someone elses' responsibility. And yet whilst we recognise the lack in parenting skills often we (society) are rather less good at providing what is needed & much better at simply pointing fingers of blame. And so it continues. 

-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 18th of January 2024 12:35:09 PM

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I disagree. 

DMaxer wrote:

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Anyone that is caught faces consequences msg. No one gets away without something happening. Just because it may not be a custodial sentence or a flogging for a first offender does not mean they have walked away unscathed.

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While searching for the latest on the age of criminal responsibility, this case popped up.

Shoplifting girl 13y11m charge dismissed because prior warnings may not have instilled sufficient awareness that it was wrong,

Paragraph 35: "It requires proof that the child appreciated the moral wrongness of the act or omission which is to be distinguished from the childs awareness that his or her conduct was merely naughty or mischievous"  ... and more. (That evidence) .... must be strong and clear beyond all reasonable doubt or contradiction".

So, if a child of that age pushed someone off a pier, a defence of "I thought it would be funny" would likely get the case dismissed. Proof is required that the child had understood from prior warnings that an act like that was morally wrong, regardless of (quote:) "however horrifying or obviously wrong the act may be".

If prior acts have resulted in virtually no consequences, how does a child learn that it is not just naughty and mischievous? Maybe the child could say "I know the police told me stealing was wrong but they just kept telling me the same thing each time I did it. We all do it. It's fun".

rmoor wrote:

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I recall an event a mate of mine told me about many years ago.
His father was a traveling rep for one of the major beer brands.
He visited Bourke a few times and found the town was being laid to ransom by a house full of local recidivists who were wrecking the local businesses with constant break ins and theft.
Significant damages and loss of stock. The local law was either powerless, useless or both.
On a return visit he dropped into one pub and asked the publican how the crime rate was going.
He said it stopped abruptly.
Two large tattooed men and a bikie like woman booked a room in his pub on a Friday. They left on Sunday. They did not come down to the bar at any time. The young woman would pick up drinks and three meals and return them to the room.
After the Saturday night reports came out about half a dozen "known to police" criminals that were known to be wrecking the towns's business sector for several months had their share house entered about 3 a.m. by two big heavily armed men.
The local hospital then admitted about half a dozen men with multiple broken arms and legs and knees destroyed forever by iron bars being wielded.
No more crime in the main street.
The three people paid their bill and left quietly on the Sunday morning.
It is apparent a private meeting was called for the towns business people and they each kicked the can for several thousand dollars to cater for some rodent control.
I believe a similar thing happened at Narromine a few years later also.
I DO Not condone violence and have never partaken in such an act, but I can fully understand the frustration of hard-working people seeing their livelihoods they have worked long hard hours to build being wrecked virtually overnight by ferals.
At the end of the day, if people push the envelope too hard, too often, there is eventually a response.
We reap what we sow.

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 I like a good story with a happy ending.........

rmoor wrote:

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If these so called re-education methods and schemes do not appear to be working, then why do those responsible for delivering these programs persist with them.
As we all know the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over.

 _______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why? Because those responsible (all of us) don't know what to do. And as you quite rightly suggest the madness continues. Why don't we know what to do? Well most likely because it has never been done before, at least not in any meaningful & consistent manner. Clearly the so called tried & true methods haven't worked, because if they had our current situation would not exist, because we would have it under control. The one consistency which persists is the fact that it is always someone else's responsibility to do something, which in the situation where that someone does not have the necessary resources to do it, it just leaves the critics complaining ever more loudly which may make some feel like they are doing their bit, even though nothing changes.  
 

Aussie1 wrote:

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Cuppa wrote:

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I think there is merit in both Dmaxer's & & AWL's posts.

I do not believe that corporal punishment is an effective solution in the long term - violence begets violence.

Nevertheless the behaviour of the youths on the pier is of a most serious nature & they should be subject to the full weight of the law. Assault at a minimum, attempted murder or manslaughter maybe. And there should be charges brought to all involved in the filming & sharing of the footage.

Us sitting around & pointing fingers of blame will achieve nothing. it is too late for that. This is the result of the sort of societal changes we have all accepted, whether we like those changes or not. Often probably not, but we have still accepted them by rationalising that it is not our problem, it is someone elses. This has changed since we were children. The individual's responsibility to society has lessened & for that we are all responsible.

Blaming parents who's own parents lacked parenting skills, for their parenting of children today, whilst understandable is shouting into the wind. The voice doesn't carry.

We all know that kids learn from having meaningful consequences imposed for unacceptable behaviours, that clear & consistent boundaries need to be set. And that it is part of the job of young pople to constantly test those boundaries as part of their development into grown adults who are useful contributors to our society.

Except we don't all know these things & most of us who do, don't know how guide those who don't. Bottom line is that young people who do not get what hey need, push boundaries imcreasinly further & we (society) tends to react only when it is really too late. The non swimmer old man could easily have been killed.  Those young people will have been out of control for some time, probably for years. Thankfully they are not representative of most young people, but that doesn't mean that there are not too many young people who are out of control & causing problems. 

Feeling out of control is not a pleasant thing for anyone, it is a scary feeling for most, regardless of the bravado overlay. When behaviours reach a point where the lives of others are not valued, chances are that not only are the perpetrators out of control but need those controls placed on them. That is a relatively easy thing to do, by removing their freedoms & applying consequences. Relative that is to acting earlier to prevent things getting to the point of incarceration. The reason it is so difficult is because it is 'someone elses' responsibility. And yet whilst we recognise the lack in parenting skills often we (society) are rather less good at providing what is needed & much better at simply pointing fingers of blame. And so it continues. 

-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 18th of January 2024 12:35:09 PM

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I disagree. 

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 Well that is hardly surprising. If it were anyone else I'd probably assume there was something of intellect behind it & enquire further in an attempt to try to draw out some meaning from what is meaningless reply, but in your case Aussie1 I have learnt that to do so would be  pointless, so will dismiss it (& any that follow) as just another of your childish point scoring jibes .

Are We Lost wrote:

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If prior acts have resulted in virtually no consequences, how does a child learn that it is not just naughty and mischievous? 

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 18th of January 2024 01:32:05 PM

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 Kids have & will always push boundaries, but back in the days when people were more connected to there community, when the local cop knew your parents, when extended family were on hand to help out, when kids had ways of getting direct feedback from those around them both within & outside the family, when they stepped over the line, & kudos when they deserved it. Community & family values have been lost & with that the values instilled in kids has also been lost.  Get it back & I'm pretty certain much of the youth problems we are seeing persistently would wane. The problem is no-one really knows how to make this happen. I in absolutely no way condone the sort of unacceptable behaviours referred to in this thread, & in no way seek to excuse what is inexcusable, but I do suggest that not only is there madness to persist in trying what doesn't work, but that it's pointless also.

I have no doubt that most folk our age can recognise  the many differences in society to when we were kids, and can probably see both upsides & the downsides of those changes. We may not always agree  which are which, but we know that things are not the same.  Rather than getting mired down in those debates, I feel a broader look suggests that many kids these days feel 'less connected' to their community, & see the broader world primarily through a small number of their peers. This is unlikely to provide boundaries & consequences to them that are needed in addition to peer relationships. Like I say I don't think we know 'how to get back what we have lost'- but I do think that somewhere in the mix we (community) need to get back to offering what kids need, in order to raise kids with a sense of both responsibility & belonging. Somehow the kids who aren't a problem must still manage to get at least 'enough' of those things, so the necessary skills exist, we need to find a way of sharing them. 

Reducing it all to crime & punishment, law & order, things that without doubt are important, over simplifies an incredibly complex problem which like it or not affects us all. 

A few days ago an early morning vandalism spree saw over 20 parked cars at the Ballarat train station have their windscreens smashed. No-one has yet suggested who might be responsible. Whoever would do such a thing was not only uncaring, but also angry. Very possibly because they do not feel cared for themselves. Yes they are selfish sh*ts, but like us all they are complex beings. Punishment is warranted, they must learn that the behaviour is not going to be tolerated & that there is a price to pay for it, but the punishment means little when there is no caring with it. Without the caring either expected or given, the punishment only becomes a 'badge of honour' among peers.