I've just purchased a 2nd hand Heyman Reese WDH System (Classic - Medium) and it included the adjustable shank (215mm drop). It sits quite low on my Triton and the bottom of the shank scrapes my driveway when going up/down.
If I flip it upside down I can get the tow ball height within a few centimetres of the caravan height and the shank doesn't scrape the ground anymore. I have scoured the Hayman Reese site and the Internet and can't find any information about installing it upside down.
I was impressed how well it worked in terms of distributing the weight to the front axles. (2018 Jayco Freedom single axle - 1980kg, with a 2023 MR Triton Dual Cab).
Has anyone towed with it flipped?
Thanks
Phil P
yobarr said
12:01 PM Feb 3, 2023
Phil P wrote:
Hi all,
I've just purchased a 2nd hand Heyman Reese WDH System (Classic - Medium) and it included the adjustable shank (215mm drop). It sits quite low on my Triton and the bottom of the shank scrapes my driveway when going up/down.
If I flip it upside down I can get the tow ball height within a few centimetres of the caravan height and the shank doesn't scrape the ground anymore. I have scoured the Hayman Reese site and the Internet and can't find any information about installing it upside down.
I was impressed how well it worked in terms of distributing the weight to the front axles. (2018 Jayco Freedom single axle - 1980kg, with a 2023 MR Triton Dual Cab).
Has anyone towed with it flipped?
Thanks
Phil P
Hi Phil. Although I am no fan of WDHs, and with a tow all weight of only 200kg (10%) you I doubt that you'd actually need one, this info may be of some help? Cheers
Thanks for the replies, I did email Hayman Reese with no response. I'm yet to do a trip with the Triton previously had a Hilux with a GVM Upgrade. I did a quick trip to put the caravan into storage and the rear of the Triton dropped 4 cm. The caravan was not packed properly and had no water in the tanks. I just purchased a 2nd hand set of WDH in case I need them for my next trip in a couple of weeks.
watsea said
11:11 AM Feb 4, 2023
Phil P wrote:
Thanks for the replies, I did email Hayman Reese with no response. I'm yet to do a trip with the Triton previously had a Hilux with a GVM Upgrade. I did a quick trip to put the caravan into storage and the rear of the Triton dropped 4 cm. The caravan was not packed properly and had no water in the tanks. I just purchased a 2nd hand set of WDH in case I need them for my next trip in a couple of weeks.
Try phoning Hayman Reese via a main connection.
Sometimes, I find companies can get less than efficient in checking their inboxs or phone messages. Recently, I emailed a technical question and also left a phone message at, supposedly, a company tech support location.
No response, so I found the company's phone number which happened to be different. I telephoned, leaving a phone message on another tech support location. I received a helpful callback within half an hour.
gold dandelion said
11:53 AM Feb 4, 2023
I have towed like that for years, no problem.
yobarr said
01:53 PM Feb 4, 2023
Phil P wrote:
Thanks for the replies, I did email Hayman Reese with no response. I'm yet to do a trip with the Triton previously had a Hilux with a GVM Upgrade. I did a quick trip to put the caravan into storage and the rear of the Triton dropped 4cm. The caravan was not packed properly and had no water in the tanks. I just purchased a 2nd hand set of WDH in case I need them for my next trip in a couple of weeks.
Not wanting to get too involved I will say only that a 4cm drop is not any cause for concern. Your car has an 1840kg rear axle, around same as Ranger, Colorado, DMax etc with tow ratings of 3000kg or more. Getting the car and van level is of no real importance, given that your van is a relatively light single axle model, so probably no need for WDH at all UNLESS you plan to carry huge weights in the tray when towing.
You do, of course, realise that a WDH adds weight to your van's axle so you may inadvertently exceed your van's ATM because a WDH does NOT change towball weight.
You have said "I was impressed how well it worked in terms of distributing the weight to the front axles", which would suggest that you've used a weighbridge to check your weights, and you've returned a lot of weight to tge front axle. You must always be very careful not to take TOO much weight off the car's rear axle. Oversteer when towing a PIG trailer is not much fun! Cheers
P.S It must be noted also that a WDH puts a lot of down-pressure on the drawbar of the van, which sometimes causes problems!
You do, of course, realise that a WDH adds weight to your van's axle so you may inadvertently exceed your van's ATM because a WDH does NOT change towball weight.
For someone who frequently professes a knowledge of physics, that knowledge must be very shallow indeed.
Some 300 plus years ago a fellow called Issac Newton published his three laws of motion and his theory of universal gravitation.
Firstly his second law of motion F=ma. Force equals mass X acceleration.
Substituting "g" ( the acceleration due to gravity) the equation becomes F=9.806m. The answer being in Newtons named after the man above. By convention Newtons divided by the number 9.806 the result is expressed in Kg Wt to make it easier to understand for the layman
This tells us that the force downwards (the weight of the caravan) is fixed by two things.
Its mass and on earth, the constant acceleration due to gravity, so its weight is constant and remains constant no matter what you do with a WDH. If the weight recorded at the wheels increases with the tensioning of a WDH then a corresponding decrease in tow ball weight must also occur.
This is as you often say, simple physics.
Alan
Cube said
05:58 PM Feb 4, 2023
As I rapidly scrolled down to add my input here on Hayman Reese ph or email support, (which I have first hand experience from multiple times), I see a stupidly larger and overly used picture of a 'tragedy' caravan picture posted. So I stop at that point and see the usual suspect has chimed in with their/him/they/them's interpretation of physics and logic.
DKE.
I now refrain from any comment in this cursed thread apart from seek advice from a expert.
yobarr wrote:
KJB said
06:08 PM Feb 4, 2023
A ....WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION HITCH..... DISTRIBUTES some weight from the REAR AXLE of the Tow Vehicle to the Front Axle of the Tow Vehicle and, at the same time, some Weight from the REAR AXLE of the Tow Vehicle to the Caravan/Trailer Axle Group.
yobarr said
07:46 PM Feb 4, 2023
KJB wrote:
A ....WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION HITCH..... DISTRIBUTES some weight from the REAR AXLE of the Tow Vehicle to the Front Axle of the Tow Vehicle and, at the same time, some Weight from the REAR AXLE of the Tow Vehicle to the Caravan/Trailer Axle Group.
Thanks Kerry for AGAIN stating what is so obvious to so many.
To avoid dignifying the post by a member who seems not interested in learning I had decided not to post further, but I will again try to explain. . This topic has been extensively covered many times before, and I have posted screenshots of information from the Hayman Reese website that clearly states that a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT. Period.
One member suggests that the OP "seek advice from an expert" when I previously have posted such advice, direct from the HR website, and confirmed by screenshots direct from that website.
For those who cannot understand the workings of a WDH could I suggest this simple exercise that clearly shows the effects.
Visit a weighbridge with your car and van, complete with your WDH fitted, but untensioned.
1) Weigh front axle of car and note weight.
2) Drive car onto weighbridge and note total weight of car. (GVM, to keep things simple)
3)Deduct front axle weight from total to determine rear axle weight.
4) Move forward so both car and van are on weighbridge, and note that total weight. (GCM, to keep things simple)
5) You now can deduct GVM from GCM to get weight on caravan axles. Alternatively, drive forward until only van axle group is on bridge. Note weight.
6) Reverse until only front axle of car is on weighbridge
7) Get out of car and tension WDH. Get back into car.
8) Record front axle weight. It will have increased.
9) Drive car onto weighbridge and record total weight of car. (GVM?). It will have decreased.
10) Deduct front axle weight from total weight of car to determine rear axle weight. It will have decreased.
11) Move forward so both car and van are on weighbridge. Record weight. Total weight (GCM?) will still be as it was before WDH was tensioned. Deduct GVM from GCM to get weight on van's axle group. OR, drive forward until only van's axle group is on weighbridge. Note weight. It will have increased.
Simple stuff that will show beyond doubt, even to those with the most convoluted views and hare-brained theories, how a WDH works.
Weight on front axle of car plus weight on rear axle of car plus weight on van's axle group will ALWAYS give the same GCM, with or without WDH.
Towball weight will NEVER change.
Because weighbridges generally weigh in 20kg increments there may be slight variations with individual weights, but total weight won't change.
If anybody still doesn't understand, could I respectfully suggest that you contact Hayman Reese direct, and let them know that, after 50 years building WDH units, they still don't know what they're talking about. Cheers
P.S If any body would like to learn how a WDH actuall works much information can be found in previous threads on the topic, complete with screenshots of information provided by Hayman Reese.
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 4th of February 2023 09:25:01 PM
Brenda and Alan said
10:33 PM Feb 4, 2023
yobarr wrote:
9) Drive car onto weighbridge and record total weight of car. (GVM?). It will have decreased.
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 4th of February 2023 09:25:01 PM
Yobarr you are either very thick or your just trying to cause problems.
The above quote proves that the WDH has reduced the weight added to the car from the drawbar as the weight of the vehicle itself does not and cannot change as it is determined solely by its mass.
As for Haymen Reece they claim that the only way to determine towball weight is WITH the van unhitched.
The RTA at least in Vic know that this is not the case and determine tow ball weight as weight car with the hitched van minus weight of car alone. This applies with or without the use of a WDH.
The rest of your argument implies the van becomes heavier and the car becomes lighter. That is not what Newton postulated so perhaps you could come up with a new theory of universal gravitation. Peraps if you do you could let NASA know as they seem to have managed very well with Newtons
Alan
yobarr said
10:48 PM Feb 4, 2023
Brenda and Alan wrote:
yobarr wrote:
9) Drive car onto weighbridge and record total weight of car. (GVM?). It will have decreased.
Yobarr you are either very thick or your just trying to cause problems.
The above quote proves that the WDH has reduced the weight added to the car from the drawbar as the weight of the vehicle itself does not and cannot change as it is determined solely by its mass.
As for Haymen Reece they claim that the only way to determine towball weight is WITH the van unhitched.
The RTA at least in Vic know that this is not the case and determine tow ball weight as weight car with the hitched van minus weight of car alone. This applies with or without the use of a WDH.
The rest of your argument implies the van becomes heavier and the car becomes lighter. That is not what Newton postulated so perhaps you could come up with a new theory of universal gravitation. Peraps if you do you could let NASA know as they seem to have managed very well with Newtons
Alan
Back to your ramblings. If you care to conduct a weighing exercise with your car and van, following my list of suggested instructions, you will quickly see that what I say is correct. Your continued waffling-on about things you clearly have little understanding is of no concern to me, but I am concerned that others may be misled by your words.
You are entitled to your opinion, but for heaven's sake don't let your confusion negatively affect members who simply are trying to learn. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 5th of February 2023 03:12:09 AM
Yobarr item 9 in your previous post shows a decrease in weight with a WDH. If as you say the towball weight has not changed then ipso facto the car has magically reduced in weight. Remember F=ma. So you are effectively saying the force of gravity is reduced by a wdh. This is just nonsense.
You clearly have very little understanding and less knowledge of physics than you think you have.
Look at your own post again and absorb the numbers that prove conclusively that you are just plain wrong.
It is you who continues to waffle on on a subject you know little about. Seek out a high school physics teacher and educate yourself on the subject.
Alan
watsea said
10:14 AM Feb 5, 2023
The tensioning of the WDH adds an applied torque (moment) to the whole vehicle/van system, at the hitch location. With a tensioned WDH, the leverage of the bars and connections in the hitch distribute the axle loads of the whole rig differently to the untensioned state.
The distribution is such that more load is shared to the vehicle's front and more load is shared to the van's wheels with a reduction of downward load to the vehicle's rear wheels.
I have WDH which I use on good roads. I am mindful that "off-road" driving can cause (excessive) high forces around the tow bar area of the vehicle and van's A frame and should be avoided.
This thread moved away from the original query. Hopefully, the further comments can move back to the OP's query.
KJB said
10:57 AM Feb 5, 2023
watsea wrote:
The tensioning of the WDH adds an applied torque (moment) to the whole vehicle/van system, at the hitch location. With a tensioned WDH, the leverage of the bars and connections in the hitch distribute the axle loads of the whole rig differently to the untensioned state.
The distribution is such that more load is shared to the vehicle's front and more load is shared to the van's wheels with a reduction of downward load to the vehicle's rear wheels.
I have WDH which I use on good roads. I am mindful that "off-road" driving can cause (excessive) high forces around the tow bar area of the vehicle and van's A frame and should be avoided.
This thread moved away from the original query. Hopefully, the further comments can move back to the OP's query.
Good explanation. It is great to know that there are caravanners out there who understand the Weight Distribution System.
yobarr said
02:07 PM Feb 5, 2023
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr item 9 in your previous post shows a decrease in weight with a WDH. If as you say the towball weight has not changed then ipso facto the car has magically reduced in weight. Remember F=ma. So you are effectively saying the force of gravity is reduced by a wdh. This is just nonsense.
You clearly have very little understanding and less knowledge of physics than you think you have.
Look at your own post again and absorb the numbers that prove conclusively that you are just plain wrong.
It is you who continues to waffle on on a subject you know little about. Seek out a high school physics teacher and educate yourself on the subject.
Alan
Alan, it is becoming somewhat monotonous trying to make you understand how a WDH works so all I can now do is ask you to take your car and van to a weighbridge and conduct the tests I've described. Provided that you don't try to fiddle the figures to suit your agenda, it soon will become clear to you that what I've posted is absolutely correct. Not negotiable.
If you tensioned a suitable WDH to extremes it is probable that you could lift the rear wheels of a car off the ground.
Because there is NO WAY that ALL the car's weight now is on the front axle, the total weight that the car exerts on the ground (GVM?) is reduced. The weight that is not supported by the car's front axle now is supported by the van's axle group. Simple stuff.
Because this has been extensively covered in the past, and you STILL don't seem to understand, there is little more that I can do EXCEPT pray that the rubbish you post doesn't negatively affect some poor unsuspecting newbie, or even a current member looking to learn more.
As I have said before, many questions about weights are asked by members who, deep down, know that their cars are overweight, but ask questions in the desperate hope that they'll get the answers they so desperately seek. Your convoluted theories add to their confusion, and do nothing to help.
There is little doubt that you believe that your theories are correct, and that you post only with the best of intentions, which is admirable, but unfortunately you're wrong. Cheers
Another result of a WDH putting downforce on the drawbar, which obviously means that the weight on the van's axle group increases.
Yobarr item 9 in your previous post says it all, but you still don't get it.
You understand what a WDH does but not how it does it.
Waffle and red herrings are not discussion.
The maths on haymen reece's charts show your wrong,Newton's second law of motion shows you are wrong.
End of story Yobarr is wrong.
Alan
Are We Lost said
09:59 AM Feb 6, 2023
Brenda and Alan wrote:
You understand what a WDH does but not how it does it.
Exactly.
You are wasting your time with trying to get Yobarr to agree. He can only parrot what others have said without being able to explain it. Many times he has been asked and many times he has avoided doing so. But it's a minor point and can't be directly measured without some specialist equipment.
Yobarr if you stopped your relentless pasting of the same unrelated photos on multiple threads it would be appreciated.
yobarr said
08:38 PM Feb 6, 2023
Are We Lost wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
You understand what a WDH does but not how it does it.
Exactly.
You are wasting your time with trying to get Yobarr to agree. He can only parrot what others have said without being able to explain it. Many times he has been asked and many times he has avoided doing so. But it's a minor point and can't be directly measured without some specialist equipment.
Yobarr if you stopped your relentless pasting of the same unrelated photos on multiple threads it would be appreciated.
Hi Stephen. Thank you for this evidently well considered post, but I'm not sure what you mean by the highlighted words?
The two photos I've posted in this thread are indeed two different photos, and one has not been previously posted, as far as I recall?
But who cares? They both still are relevant when the subject is WDHs and the physics involved in their usage, and were posted to clearly illustrate to people who don't undestand, that a WDH applies a significant downforce onto the van's drawbar.
As for your comment "He can only parrot what others have said" surely this is the case with all physics, unless the writer has conducted his own experiments. How can you be sure that the world is round?
And I will never agree with any convoluted and hare brained theories posted by anybody when said theories are in direct disagreement with information supplied by the manufacturer of the product in question. You may like to check their website before writing to them and letting them know that, after 60 years, they still don't know what they're talking about. Everything I have said is available there, and many screenshots of that advice can be found in my posts in earlier threads on this topic.
The rubbish that has been posted does not worry me too much, as everybody is entitled to an opinion, no matter how wrong they may be, but I am more concerned that newbies and others who simply wish to learn may act on that incorrect advice.
Over the past 5 years my posts on WDH have been proven correct so many times that it is becoming boring, so I can only suggest that apparently slow learners look back over the many threads on the subject. If they still can't understand, there is little more I can do to help. Sorry. Cheers
P.S The second photo is included only to alert members to the dangers of of using unskilled labour to fit your WDH, and clearly shows that a WDH increases TBO which multiplies thev weight applied to the car's rear axle by the towball weight, as well as increasing the effects of yaw.
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 6th of February 2023 09:21:46 PM
I received a phone call today from a former work colleague who looks in on this forum and he said two things to me.
1 You have hijacked Phil P post for which I apoligise.
2 Don't argue with fools.
On a closing note since yobarr is fond of finding quotes on the internet here is one for him.
Voltaire "It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere"
Alan
Are We Lost said
10:59 PM Feb 6, 2023
yobarr wrote:As for your comment "He can only parrot what others have said" surely this is the case with all physics, unless the writer has conducted his own experiments. How can you be sure that the world is round?
Just responding to the part that I bolded.
To help convince someone that the world is round, you could talk about how planes and ships fly all over the world and nobody has ever found an edge. Or that if you watch a boat sail out to sea, why does it disappear below the horizon. No doubt there will be plenty of other ways to explain it. Saying "because Galileo (and others) said so" is not an explanation. Your response above is enough example to show that you can't explain why you think Brenda and Alan has it wrong.
But the point has been made about drifting off the subject. Thanks to Yobarr the thread diverged to the old chestnut of the negatives of WDH at post #7, with sensationalist photos that are unrelated to the question. The photos are unrelated because they are rare events and just scaremongering, and have zero to do with flipping a shank. So I will make no further comment on WDH here. Will you do the same Yobarr?
To put my comment into the mix, I agree that a small divergence from having a level caravan to slightly nose up matters little with a single axle van.
Dougwe said
08:05 AM Feb 7, 2023
Come on now, the resident Xspurt can't be wrong, surely. Never!
rgren2 said
08:22 AM Feb 7, 2023
A handy hint for when you flip the shank, take the towball off then put it on the opposite side.
jegog said
11:01 AM Feb 7, 2023
To Brenda and Alan -
Yobar unfortunately has absolutely no understanding of "mass".
That mass is predicated upon the number and type of molecules it consists of is foreign to him.
He does not understand that a body with a mass of 100kg will still have a mass of 100kg whether it is on the beach, on top of Mt. Everest or even the moon.
In various points he has stated that a WDH alters the mass of the trailer and the vehicle.
He time and time again equates weight to mass.
Without understanding what mass is, and what weight is, he is incapable of understanding the physics involved.
He makes observations, which are correct, but his explanations are completely wrong.
I am reminded of Ibn al-Haytham An Arab mathematician who in his book Kitab Al Manazer proposed that the eyes receive light reflected from objects, rather than emanating light themselves, contradicting contemporary beliefs, including those of Ptolemy and Euclid.
The Greeks relied upon observations, whereas Ibn al-Haytham went back to first principals and step by step developed his proof.
The Belmont Bear said
01:22 PM Feb 7, 2023
The continual argument on WDHs or how they work has really become boring but because Jeep says over a certain weight I need to use one I do. On our previous van I used the HR type WdH with the spring torsion bars when we got the new one last August I invested in an Andersen Hitch which in my opinion is more effective as it also helps to minimise sway, its quieter and is easier to connect/disconect. After taking delivery of the new van and before setting off on a 12 week trip around Queensland we paid to have all of our weights checked by a mobile weighing service to ensure 1) we were legal and 2) we understood load distribution and balance. I wont go into detail on everything but one of the things that they did was set up their ball weight gauge to exactly the same height as the ball on the car as they said that this was critical in order to get an accurate reading. At the end of the weigh in the only issue we had was that the vans ball weight was a bit lighter than the recommended 10% so in combination with redistributing items to different locations they suggested that I raise the ball height by 20mm or 1 set of holes in the shank. To show me the effect of doing that they set their gauge 20mm higher and the weight on the scale went up by 8kg. The other thing they did was while sitting on the scales was to move a 10kg test piece to lots of different locations to show us the % change it made to the readings as we would be able to use that as a guide when adding, removing or relocating items.
BB
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Tuesday 7th of February 2023 01:24:22 PM
Mamil said
11:54 PM Feb 10, 2023
rgren2 wrote:
A handy hint for when you flip the shank, take the towball off then put it on the opposite side.
A very good point, and I would add - make sure you disconnect the caravan before you flip the shank
Hi all,
I've just purchased a 2nd hand Heyman Reese WDH System (Classic - Medium) and it included the adjustable shank (215mm drop). It sits quite low on my Triton and the bottom of the shank scrapes my driveway when going up/down.
If I flip it upside down I can get the tow ball height within a few centimetres of the caravan height and the shank doesn't scrape the ground anymore. I have scoured the Hayman Reese site and the Internet and can't find any information about installing it upside down.
I was impressed how well it worked in terms of distributing the weight to the front axles. (2018 Jayco Freedom single axle - 1980kg, with a 2023 MR Triton Dual Cab).
Has anyone towed with it flipped?
Thanks
Phil P
Hi Phil. Although I am no fan of WDHs, and with a tow all weight of only 200kg (10%) you I doubt that you'd actually need one, this info may be of some help? Cheers
Try phoning Hayman Reese via a main connection.
Sometimes, I find companies can get less than efficient in checking their inboxs or phone messages. Recently, I emailed a technical question and also left a phone message at, supposedly, a company tech support location.
No response, so I found the company's phone number which happened to be different. I telephoned, leaving a phone message on another tech support location. I received a helpful callback within half an hour.
Not wanting to get too involved I will say only that a 4cm drop is not any cause for concern. Your car has an 1840kg rear axle, around same as Ranger, Colorado, DMax etc with tow ratings of 3000kg or more. Getting the car and van level is of no real importance, given that your van is a relatively light single axle model, so probably no need for WDH at all UNLESS you plan to carry huge weights in the tray when towing.
You do, of course, realise that a WDH adds weight to your van's axle so you may inadvertently exceed your van's ATM because a WDH does NOT change towball weight.
You have said "I was impressed how well it worked in terms of distributing the weight to the front axles", which would suggest that you've used a weighbridge to check your weights, and you've returned a lot of weight to tge front axle. You must always be very careful not to take TOO much weight off the car's rear axle. Oversteer when towing a PIG trailer is not much fun! Cheers
P.S It must be noted also that a WDH puts a lot of down-pressure on the drawbar of the van, which sometimes causes problems!
For someone who frequently professes a knowledge of physics, that knowledge must be very shallow indeed.
Some 300 plus years ago a fellow called Issac Newton published his three laws of motion and his theory of universal gravitation.
Firstly his second law of motion F=ma. Force equals mass X acceleration.
Substituting "g" ( the acceleration due to gravity) the equation becomes F=9.806m. The answer being in Newtons named after the man above. By convention Newtons divided by the number 9.806 the result is expressed in Kg Wt to make it easier to understand for the layman
This tells us that the force downwards (the weight of the caravan) is fixed by two things.
Its mass and on earth, the constant acceleration due to gravity, so its weight is constant and remains constant no matter what you do with a WDH. If the weight recorded at the wheels increases with the tensioning of a WDH then a corresponding decrease in tow ball weight must also occur.
This is as you often say, simple physics.
Alan
A ....WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION HITCH..... DISTRIBUTES some weight from the REAR AXLE of the Tow Vehicle to the Front Axle of the Tow Vehicle and, at the same time, some Weight from the REAR AXLE of the Tow Vehicle to the Caravan/Trailer Axle Group.
Thanks Kerry for AGAIN stating what is so obvious to so many.
To avoid dignifying the post by a member who seems not interested in learning I had decided not to post further, but I will again try to explain. . This topic has been extensively covered many times before, and I have posted screenshots of information from the Hayman Reese website that clearly states that a WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT. Period.
One member suggests that the OP "seek advice from an expert" when I previously have posted such advice, direct from the HR website, and confirmed by screenshots direct from that website.
For those who cannot understand the workings of a WDH could I suggest this simple exercise that clearly shows the effects.
Visit a weighbridge with your car and van, complete with your WDH fitted, but untensioned.
1) Weigh front axle of car and note weight.
2) Drive car onto weighbridge and note total weight of car. (GVM, to keep things simple)
3)Deduct front axle weight from total to determine rear axle weight.
4) Move forward so both car and van are on weighbridge, and note that total weight. (GCM, to keep things simple)
5) You now can deduct GVM from GCM to get weight on caravan axles. Alternatively, drive forward until only van axle group is on bridge. Note weight.
6) Reverse until only front axle of car is on weighbridge
7) Get out of car and tension WDH. Get back into car.
8) Record front axle weight. It will have increased.
9) Drive car onto weighbridge and record total weight of car. (GVM?). It will have decreased.
10) Deduct front axle weight from total weight of car to determine rear axle weight. It will have decreased.
11) Move forward so both car and van are on weighbridge. Record weight. Total weight (GCM?) will still be as it was before WDH was tensioned. Deduct GVM from GCM to get weight on van's axle group. OR, drive forward until only van's axle group is on weighbridge. Note weight. It will have increased.
Simple stuff that will show beyond doubt, even to those with the most convoluted views and hare-brained theories, how a WDH works.
Weight on front axle of car plus weight on rear axle of car plus weight on van's axle group will ALWAYS give the same GCM, with or without WDH.
Towball weight will NEVER change.
Because weighbridges generally weigh in 20kg increments there may be slight variations with individual weights, but total weight won't change.
If anybody still doesn't understand, could I respectfully suggest that you contact Hayman Reese direct, and let them know that, after 50 years building WDH units, they still don't know what they're talking about. Cheers
P.S If any body would like to learn how a WDH actuall works much information can be found in previous threads on the topic, complete with screenshots of information provided by Hayman Reese.
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 4th of February 2023 09:25:01 PM
Yobarr you are either very thick or your just trying to cause problems.
The above quote proves that the WDH has reduced the weight added to the car from the drawbar as the weight of the vehicle itself does not and cannot change as it is determined solely by its mass.
As for Haymen Reece they claim that the only way to determine towball weight is WITH the van unhitched.
The RTA at least in Vic know that this is not the case and determine tow ball weight as weight car with the hitched van minus weight of car alone. This applies with or without the use of a WDH.
The rest of your argument implies the van becomes heavier and the car becomes lighter. That is not what Newton postulated so perhaps you could come up with a new theory of universal gravitation. Peraps if you do you could let NASA know as they seem to have managed very well with Newtons
Alan
Back to your ramblings. If you care to conduct a weighing exercise with your car and van, following my list of suggested instructions, you will quickly see that what I say is correct. Your continued waffling-on about things you clearly have little understanding is of no concern to me, but I am concerned that others may be misled by your words.
You are entitled to your opinion, but for heaven's sake don't let your confusion negatively affect members who simply are trying to learn. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 5th of February 2023 03:12:09 AM
Yobarr item 9 in your previous post shows a decrease in weight with a WDH. If as you say the towball weight has not changed then ipso facto the car has magically reduced in weight. Remember F=ma. So you are effectively saying the force of gravity is reduced by a wdh. This is just nonsense.
You clearly have very little understanding and less knowledge of physics than you think you have.
Look at your own post again and absorb the numbers that prove conclusively that you are just plain wrong.
It is you who continues to waffle on on a subject you know little about. Seek out a high school physics teacher and educate yourself on the subject.
Alan
The distribution is such that more load is shared to the vehicle's front and more load is shared to the van's wheels with a reduction of downward load to the vehicle's rear wheels.
I have WDH which I use on good roads. I am mindful that "off-road" driving can cause (excessive) high forces around the tow bar area of the vehicle and van's A frame and should be avoided.
This thread moved away from the original query. Hopefully, the further comments can move back to the OP's query.
Good explanation. It is great to know that there are caravanners out there who understand the Weight Distribution System.
Alan, it is becoming somewhat monotonous trying to make you understand how a WDH works so all I can now do is ask you to take your car and van to a weighbridge and conduct the tests I've described. Provided that you don't try to fiddle the figures to suit your agenda, it soon will become clear to you that what I've posted is absolutely correct. Not negotiable.
If you tensioned a suitable WDH to extremes it is probable that you could lift the rear wheels of a car off the ground.
Because there is NO WAY that ALL the car's weight now is on the front axle, the total weight that the car exerts on the ground (GVM?) is reduced. The weight that is not supported by the car's front axle now is supported by the van's axle group. Simple stuff.
Because this has been extensively covered in the past, and you STILL don't seem to understand, there is little more that I can do EXCEPT pray that the rubbish you post doesn't negatively affect some poor unsuspecting newbie, or even a current member looking to learn more.
As I have said before, many questions about weights are asked by members who, deep down, know that their cars are overweight, but ask questions in the desperate hope that they'll get the answers they so desperately seek. Your convoluted theories add to their confusion, and do nothing to help.
There is little doubt that you believe that your theories are correct, and that you post only with the best of intentions, which is admirable, but unfortunately you're wrong. Cheers
Another result of a WDH putting downforce on the drawbar, which obviously means that the weight on the van's axle group increases.
Yobarr item 9 in your previous post says it all, but you still don't get it.
You understand what a WDH does but not how it does it.
Waffle and red herrings are not discussion.
The maths on haymen reece's charts show your wrong,Newton's second law of motion shows you are wrong.
End of story Yobarr is wrong.
Alan
Exactly.
You are wasting your time with trying to get Yobarr to agree. He can only parrot what others have said without being able to explain it. Many times he has been asked and many times he has avoided doing so. But it's a minor point and can't be directly measured without some specialist equipment.
Yobarr if you stopped your relentless pasting of the same unrelated photos on multiple threads it would be appreciated.
Hi Stephen. Thank you for this evidently well considered post, but I'm not sure what you mean by the highlighted words?
The two photos I've posted in this thread are indeed two different photos, and one has not been previously posted, as far as I recall?
But who cares? They both still are relevant when the subject is WDHs and the physics involved in their usage, and were posted to clearly illustrate to people who don't undestand, that a WDH applies a significant downforce onto the van's drawbar.
As for your comment "He can only parrot what others have said" surely this is the case with all physics, unless the writer has conducted his own experiments. How can you be sure that the world is round?
And I will never agree with any convoluted and hare brained theories posted by anybody when said theories are in direct disagreement with information supplied by the manufacturer of the product in question. You may like to check their website before writing to them and letting them know that, after 60 years, they still don't know what they're talking about. Everything I have said is available there, and many screenshots of that advice can be found in my posts in earlier threads on this topic.
The rubbish that has been posted does not worry me too much, as everybody is entitled to an opinion, no matter how wrong they may be, but I am more concerned that newbies and others who simply wish to learn may act on that incorrect advice.
Over the past 5 years my posts on WDH have been proven correct so many times that it is becoming boring, so I can only suggest that apparently slow learners look back over the many threads on the subject. If they still can't understand, there is little more I can do to help. Sorry. Cheers
P.S The second photo is included only to alert members to the dangers of of using unskilled labour to fit your WDH, and clearly shows that a WDH increases TBO which multiplies thev weight applied to the car's rear axle by the towball weight, as well as increasing the effects of yaw.
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 6th of February 2023 09:21:46 PM
I received a phone call today from a former work colleague who looks in on this forum and he said two things to me.
1 You have hijacked Phil P post for which I apoligise.
2 Don't argue with fools.
On a closing note since yobarr is fond of finding quotes on the internet here is one for him.
Voltaire "It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere"
Alan
Just responding to the part that I bolded.
To help convince someone that the world is round, you could talk about how planes and ships fly all over the world and nobody has ever found an edge. Or that if you watch a boat sail out to sea, why does it disappear below the horizon. No doubt there will be plenty of other ways to explain it. Saying "because Galileo (and others) said so" is not an explanation. Your response above is enough example to show that you can't explain why you think Brenda and Alan has it wrong.
But the point has been made about drifting off the subject. Thanks to Yobarr the thread diverged to the old chestnut of the negatives of WDH at post #7, with sensationalist photos that are unrelated to the question. The photos are unrelated because they are rare events and just scaremongering, and have zero to do with flipping a shank. So I will make no further comment on WDH here. Will you do the same Yobarr?
To put my comment into the mix, I agree that a small divergence from having a level caravan to slightly nose up matters little with a single axle van.
Yobar unfortunately has absolutely no understanding of "mass".
That mass is predicated upon the number and type of molecules it consists of is foreign to him.
He does not understand that a body with a mass of 100kg will still have a mass of 100kg whether it is on the beach, on top of Mt. Everest or even the moon.
In various points he has stated that a WDH alters the mass of the trailer and the vehicle.
He time and time again equates weight to mass.
Without understanding what mass is, and what weight is, he is incapable of understanding the physics involved.
He makes observations, which are correct, but his explanations are completely wrong.
I am reminded of Ibn al-Haytham An Arab mathematician who in his book Kitab Al Manazer proposed that the eyes receive light reflected from objects, rather than emanating light themselves, contradicting contemporary beliefs, including those of Ptolemy and Euclid.
The Greeks relied upon observations, whereas Ibn al-Haytham went back to first principals and step by step developed his proof.
The continual argument on WDHs or how they work has really become boring but because Jeep says over a certain weight I need to use one I do. On our previous van I used the HR type WdH with the spring torsion bars when we got the new one last August I invested in an Andersen Hitch which in my opinion is more effective as it also helps to minimise sway, its quieter and is easier to connect/disconect. After taking delivery of the new van and before setting off on a 12 week trip around Queensland we paid to have all of our weights checked by a mobile weighing service to ensure 1) we were legal and 2) we understood load distribution and balance. I wont go into detail on everything but one of the things that they did was set up their ball weight gauge to exactly the same height as the ball on the car as they said that this was critical in order to get an accurate reading. At the end of the weigh in the only issue we had was that the vans ball weight was a bit lighter than the recommended 10% so in combination with redistributing items to different locations they suggested that I raise the ball height by 20mm or 1 set of holes in the shank. To show me the effect of doing that they set their gauge 20mm higher and the weight on the scale went up by 8kg. The other thing they did was while sitting on the scales was to move a 10kg test piece to lots of different locations to show us the % change it made to the readings as we would be able to use that as a guide when adding, removing or relocating items.
BB
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Tuesday 7th of February 2023 01:24:22 PM
A very good point, and I would add - make sure you disconnect the caravan before you flip the shank
There are 2 types of adjustable shanks. One is cast and the other is fabricated.
Fabricated adjustable shanks are welded with unknown flaws. As a result, I would not recommend flipping an adjustable shank.
Adjustable shanks are cast. This type of shank could be reversed or flipped depending on the manufacturer's advice.
The only flipping shank I have had is playing golf.