Setec ST-1 power unit on 2003 jayco out Bach pop top
J_KZ-1 said
10:12 PM Sep 9, 2022
Good evening all,
Once again reaching out to forum for advice. Received good advise last year prior to leaving VIC. Returned late Jan this year.
Had a 20A dc to dc mppt charge installed plus 2 Andom plugs on van, 1 for solar panels and other one to plug into Ando on car ( car Ando direct to car battery). Also replaced agm battery with lithium battery.
recently the service centre total flatten the battery (used battery rather than 240 while working inside of van for 3weeks)but they assured they would charge it up and too come back in 2 days. Returned but battery still flat only plugged in to 240v.
I question them why it was still flat the blamed the age of the power unit and also the set up of 12v system and that the agm battery was old, had to advise them that it was a lithium battery 14 months old.
When they heard it was a lithium battery, the blame was back on the Setec ST-1 unit. Not suitable for lithium charge as it was an old style of unit. They then jumped start the lithium to get it out of sleep mode(?) and for me to use lithium charger at home!, I do have one which have. A friend has suggested that by them jumping the lithium out of sleep mode might have damaged it as it was down to 1.8 volts when they tested when it was flat?
Is this correct re the power unit: not able to charge lithium when plugged into 240? To be honest did not know unit was able to do this. They also advise that 3 way fridge should be run of battery not car power when driving, and have Ando from van to car not connected everytime we drive so as not to over charge battery.
I hope that all makes senses, if not Ill try again. Please any explanations be kept in simple language. Re Setec ST-1, fridge and continual plug into car ando when travelling every day?
Thanks all or any replies.
JohnZ
TimTim said
05:58 PM Sep 10, 2022
J_KZ-1 wrote:
Good evening all,
Once again reaching out to forum for advice. Received good advise last year prior to leaving VIC. Returned late Jan this year.
Had a 20A dc to dc mppt charge installed plus 2 Andom plugs on van, 1 for solar panels and other one to plug into Ando on car ( car Ando direct to car battery). Also replaced agm battery with lithium battery.
recently the service centre total flatten the battery (used battery rather than 240 while working inside of van for 3weeks)but they assured they would charge it up and too come back in 2 days. Returned but battery still flat only plugged in to 240v.
I question them why it was still flat the blamed the age of the power unit and also the set up of 12v system and that the agm battery was old, had to advise them that it was a lithium battery 14 months old.
When they heard it was a lithium battery, the blame was back on the Setec ST-1 unit. Not suitable for lithium charge as it was an old style of unit. They then jumped start the lithium to get it out of sleep mode(?) and for me to use lithium charger at home!, I do have one which have. A friend has suggested that by them jumping the lithium out of sleep mode might have damaged it as it was down to 1.8 volts when they tested when it was flat?
Is this correct re the power unit: not able to charge lithium when plugged into 240? To be honest did not know unit was able to do this. They also advise that 3 way fridge should be run of battery not car power when driving, and have Ando from van to car not connected everytime we drive so as not to over charge battery.
I hope that all makes senses, if not Ill try again. Please any explanations be kept in simple language. Re Setec ST-1, fridge and continual plug into car ando when travelling every day?
Thanks all or any replies.
JohnZ
Hi John,
I know nothing about the Setec but will take a look at it so see what information I can give you. As for your lithium battery at 1.8v there is a possibility of significant cell damage. When they talk about jumpstarting a lithium battery what they mean is jumpstarting the BMS because it has shut down. This process does not damage the battery but the cells in your battery may well of been already damaged.
I doubt whether you have a variable DC charger but that is what you really need to charge the cells at a very low current so all you can do is try and charge your battery with the lithium charger that you have. I also suggest that where possible to charge the battery outside and keep a close eye on for any swelling.
What size is your battery and what current does your charger provide?
How did your battery get down to 1.8v? The BMS should have shut down on low voltage. What brand is your battery as at 14 months old you could also consider a warranty claim for a BMS failure.
Just to explain, a BMS is a battery management system inside the battery which act to prevent overcharging and over discharging of the individual cells and the battery as as whole.
Tim
-- Edited by TimTim on Saturday 10th of September 2022 06:22:46 PM
swamp said
06:23 PM Sep 10, 2022
hi
Lithium likes to be charged how the battery maker suggests , so what does the battery instructions say .??
The suggestion would be to
Either a
single cable
25--35 mmsq cable minimum from car battery to lithium dc2dc then to lithium . 3way Fridge connected via rv movement switch to input side of charger .
Twin cable
1x supply to charger 25--35mmsq
1x suppy to fridge 13--16mmsq
dc 2dc lithium profile
40A Enerdrive [preferred ]
40A Redarc
There are dc2dc 25amp units but with Lithium u will have a quick charge advantage with a 40amp . # provided the battery can take it .
Oh yea 400watts is conservative solar and with MPPT produces 28amps . Used on a 30 amp charger
Dont forget u only have about 5.5 hrs of PEAK SUN HOURS for the avg summer spring autumn day , winter and southern ozzy is less
200watts is rated 11amps less power losses upto 20% = 9amps x 5.5hrs = approx 50Ahr
-----xtra sun hours is a bonus
-----mppt is a bonus
both above not included in output
There are PDF on Jayco Setec on the www.
J_KZ-1 said
07:49 PM Sep 10, 2022
Thanks Tim Tim and swamp,
Firstly to swamp: the whole setup battery and dc2dc mppt charger was installed by auto elec that was recommended by mechanic prior us leaving VIC. so I am presuming everything was installed to requirements. No charging instructions where given to me the sparky must have kept them! Everything installed early May 2021.
As mention in my original posting, I have limit knowledge on electrical stuff relied on 3parties. Products recommended by sparky.
To TimTim,
We needed to have work done on the inside of the van: remove ceiling and other internals, they had the van for just over 3 weeks and the only explanation from them was the workers forgot to turn battery power off when not working on the van- left everything on. They used the lights on battery mode rather than 240v. I charged the battery up two weeks before: Using the portable charger, charged the battery full then!
We purchased everything from VIC Off Road on recommendation: 20 Amp dc2dc mppt charger- recognises what battery its connected to ( VIC Off Rd advicsed 20 amp was sufficient for 125 battery), 125 amp lithium battery and portable 12volt 4amp automatic charger ( recognises what type of battery its charging, sets charge for that type of battery ie. lithium, agm, etc.). Auto elect recommended this type charger in the event I needed to charge the car battery.
All products are ATEM POWER: this brand was recommended to us. Everything with system appeared to work correctly whilst travelling around WA & NT!
one further question should I be connected to car Ando all the time whilst travelling?
Hope above explanation makes sense. Thanks to both of you.
JohnZ
J_KZ-1 said
07:58 PM Sep 10, 2022
TimTim forgot to add the 240;v charger: for 12vLFP reads as - 12vLFP charging program: 14.6v DC/2A.
Does this make senses?
JohnZ
TimTim said
08:24 PM Sep 10, 2022
Ok irrespective of how much power they used whilst working on your van the BMS should have shut down at or before 10.00v. Generally there is a margin so it will be before 10.00v. Your BMS failed to do this so there is a fault with your battery, a fault that would always have been in existence and which you have only found out now due to certain circumstances. If they argue that it only has a 12 month warranty then you argument is that under Australian Consumer Guarantee the product should last longer than 15 months.
You can try charging it but as I said do it outside and keep an eye out for any swelling. At 2A it will take a long time to charge but at least you have a low current charger.
TimTim said
08:59 PM Sep 10, 2022
Sry I missed your question re connecting to the Anderson plug. Yes of course as this is what your DC/DC charger is meant for. As you drive it charges your caravan battery and will not overcharge it.
Was your caravan being repaired under an insurance claim. If this is the case I would also contact the insurer As you may be able to get it replaced by them
-- Edited by TimTim on Saturday 10th of September 2022 09:45:53 PM
J_KZ-1 said
10:31 PM Sep 10, 2022
TimTim,
Unfortunately not an insurance claim, personal work, old water stains, cooking stains ( from previous owners.) general tidy up. Re 1.8 v charge in battery, the salesman in the van yard apparently tested before waking battery up have to go on his word.
Ill take battery out of van tomorrow to check it and charge out in the patio and go from there.
Son rang earlier and he found some thing on the Setec ST-1 power unit some where on the internet. He states the file he found says it charges lead acid batteries he seems to thing its old technology.That answers that, wont charge lithium. Hes going to send me the link: not going to mean much to me!
Thanks for all your input. Glad to read about connecting to car.
JohnZ
TimTim said
10:47 PM Sep 10, 2022
Ok, so no insurance claim but as I stated go back to ATEM Power as it is a warranty claim for a faulty BMS.
J_KZ-1 said
08:58 AM Sep 11, 2022
Be looking for invoice today and send them an email re BMS failure. Their response will be interesting!
Couldnt respond last night as wife and youngest son and his family just got home from watching Melb. Storm getting beaten had to listen about biased umpiring. They havent had a good run: AFL- Bdogs done by Freeo, NRL- Storm done by Raiders My AFL team have been duds for almost 30years. Who cares.
swamp said
07:38 PM Sep 12, 2022
hi
I say if u use 80% battery capacity ,approx 100ahr
Avg day PSH PEAK SUN HOURS 5.5 per day to recharge 100A/hr
100A/hr divide by 5.5 hrs = 18 amps per hour roughly . In reality to have 18--20amp production is to slim of a margin . There are variations ,losses etc
300watts minimum [300w = 21amps with Mppt ] ,, but ideal 400watts solar
Hopefully this explains it better .
Yes u will find that the Setec Jayco chargers are poor performing chargers and only for wet/flooded lead acid. There primary use is as a Van park used as a dc 12v power supply . Most people convert them into fuse box use only when good solar is installed [solar and 240v and dc2dc charging ].
valiant81 said
10:51 PM Sep 12, 2022
Hi all. My own Jayco caravan setec battery managment and while it is not the series 1, mine is the series 3. One thing i did find out was as a battery charger, these setec units are next to usless and one thing that has been unpluged from the mains power. These setec units and acording to the owners manual on thesetec - 111 it's charging capacity is under 1 Amp ( 800 Ma ) and so wouls take a month of Sundays to charge your house batteries. I now use a Victron 12 volt 30 Amp battery charger connected to my house batteries ( 2 x 220 Ah AGM's ). This it does and has been game changer for my system. I also have 240 Watts of solar on the roof, this is also controlled by a Victron MPPT solar controller. To add to my system i also added a Victron smart bridge. This can handle 500 Amps. Free camping is now not a issue, I use gas for the 3 way fridge, but have 2 X Engle 40 Ltr fridges, Sat tv and a diesel heater for when it is cold ( a common problem in Tassie.) I also have a bit of communication radios. Battery wise and over night i have used around 5% of the battery capacity and find that by lunch time I'm back up to full capacity. The reason why i chose Victron is purly that all 3 units are bluetoothed to my phone and i can at a glace see how my batteries are performing, current going in/out of the batteries and finaly the capacity left of my batteries.
As for the setec unit, it is only used as a fuse block for the existing wireing in the caravan. All of the other new wireing has been installe to a new fuse block. I also have a small 2kva generator for and if needed to connect to the caravan and it's main use id to put mains voltage to the Victron smart charger. After free camping last Christmas for 2 weeks last year the generator was only used ( and this was the first time ) just to see how every thing was going. Not cheap but it works and has done so for around 18 months. Every time i go to the caravan and check, the batteries are at 100%. The smart charger has shut down and gone to sleep, and the solar has only been puting in the minimum charge.
-- Edited by valiant81 on Tuesday 13th of September 2022 09:57:44 AM
TimTim said
08:05 AM Sep 13, 2022
Thanks Valiant81, I just wanted to confirm that it is a charger as well. It would not have damaged J_KZ-1s battery but being LiFePO4 it wouldnt have fully charged it either. Good to hear that you have something that works for you .
TimTim said
08:39 AM Sep 13, 2022
J_KZ-1 wrote:
TimTim,
Unfortunately not an insurance claim, personal work, old water stains, cooking stains ( from previous owners.) general tidy up. Re 1.8 v charge in battery, the salesman in the van yard apparently tested before waking battery up have to go on his word.
Ill take battery out of van tomorrow to check it and charge out in the patio and go from there.
Son rang earlier and he found some thing on the Setec ST-1 power unit some where on the internet. He states the file he found says it charges lead acid batteries he seems to thing its old technology.That answers that, wont charge lithium. Hes going to send me the link: not going to mean much to me!
Thanks for all your input. Glad to read about connecting to car.
JohnZ
Hi John,
It sounds like the Setec is an old style battery charger that would charge a LIFePO4 battery but not fully. There is no reason though that it contributed to your battery failure as that was a combination of the caravan company running your battery down and a failure of the BMS to shut off at low voltage.
By my calculations it should take just over a day to recharge your battery and I should have said to check it with a multimeter from time to time to see how it is going. If it does charge up at 14.6v your battery is 100% charged but the BMS will in all probability not be set for it to charge that high so you may only get to between 13.4 and 13.8. If you then let it rest for a couple of hours we can see what the voltage settles down to. If you get to that stage then we can look at testing the battery.
Just by coincidence I finally picked up my caravan last week after having my tug vehicle stolen back in April. I now have two flat 280Ah LiFePO4 batteries where the BMSs have drawn a parasitic current. Luckily though, they are not servely discharged like yours and as they are DIY built I can recover them.
Tim
-- Edited by TimTim on Tuesday 13th of September 2022 10:51:11 AM
swamp said
09:14 AM Sep 13, 2022
hi
It is always a very wise decision to fit a 1/ 100% system shut down isolator switch ,, 2/ low voltage disconnect .. These 2 items guarantee battery protection from over discharge . Amazed at how many vans are not equipped with any of this battery protection .
J_KZ-1 said
09:34 PM Sep 14, 2022
To all who written ideas/replies,
Sorry for the late reply but my oldest grandson took my iPad home with him yesterday and just returned the damthing. Almost as bad as his grumpma about who owns what- all theirs I just get a loan of my things.
Thanks for the input, will have wait until we get the van back: took it back yesterday morning too have adjustments to awning installation and repairs on poo top roof canvas side, they may have van for a week?
Have been able to confirm that the ST-1 charges lead acid batteries only! Will need to give serious thoughts to reconfigure the ST-1 wiring like valiant81 has!
At least discount the charger function?
Will have SIL bring his multimeter around to check the battery.
What I notice when I plugged the caravan Ando in to the car the mppt charge in the van should the battery being charged and battery good light on. I put it on 240v charger ( out of the van) when and also check out the casing for damage. Only registered halfway to repairers that may I shouldnt have plugged the Ando in, waiting for the thing to blow!
John.
PS. Will post update when I get the van back and charged the battery up etc.
Once again thanks to all.
J_KZ-1 said
11:10 PM Sep 14, 2022
PPS.:
Forgot to add, that I decided to check the 12 v fuses in the ST-1 housing, yesterday, when I checked mppt (dont know why I decided to do that, check fuses) and low and behold on the inside of hinged cover there is a label, with at few notes and the final note states: only charge lead aid battery. Now I know for certain.
Is there a conflict between having the 12v dc2dc mppt connected to the LiFePO4 battery and the ST-1 still functioning- though it only charges Ld. Acid battery. Until I can have the batter charging function within the ST-1 disconnected, will it degrade the battery with both mppt and ST-1 functioning?
We only have the basics items in our van, have TV antenna, but aerial cable has a break somewhere within wall cavity/floor cavity and wall plug: no drama with no TV- its a 240v any way. Only rely on 12v for lights when free camping, charge with 200w folding solar blanket when F/camping.
Will have do major up grade within van in future or upgrade van that has everything that you all have.
Gone have too pull finger out and educate myself about electrical stuff, so I can do a lot myself.
Again Thanks,
John
TimTim said
10:06 AM Sep 15, 2022
Yes the ST-1 is only for lead acid batteries but it did not harm the battery but also it would of not been able to charge it fully. That is not necessarily a bad thing with LiFePO4 anyway.
There should not be any conflict with the ST-1 and the DC/DC MPPT controller and it sounds like the system has been working for you for over the past year simply because you do not have a large power draw. Another option on a powered site is to have your portable charger permanently plugged into a GPO and wired to your battery.
Firstly though we need to find out if your battery is still functioning. Any reply from the seller and have you managed to test the voltage yet?
J_KZ-1 said
07:45 PM Sep 15, 2022
Gday Tim,
Apologises for convoluted posts. I did have the battery out and got some charge, but as I mentioned last night we had to get the van on the Tuesday or no later than very earl a.m. on the following morning to have repairs done to canvas side of roof (cuts that werent there originally- I reckon it happened when they where doing ceiling lining) and adjust height of awning arms. Had to get van back to them in their time line (Tues./Wed.) or wait until late October/early November!
I stupidly reinstalled the battery in van before leaving to take van back to repairer and thats when I checked the fuses! This is the first and last time I use these repairs (connect to well know van manufacturer- not jayco but recommended by them as jayco repairer?), normally have van work done close to home on the Mornington peninsula not Melbourne.
Will have to start everything again with battery when we get van back! Still waiting on response from manufacture, checked with ombudsman, they the seller/manufacture take Upto 14/21 days to respond?
Once again thanks for your input and interest on this Tim. Sorry Tim whats a GPO?
Regards,
John ( please excuse all and any typos, grammar or left out words)
PS. Van repairer is denying liability for cuts, that werent there before they start on ceiling, but fixing as customer Care and are adjusting height of awning arms under C/Care, that we wanted that height ie. awning jamming on door when opening door- no matter if roof down or up and resting on roller on door & bending corner of door. Cant recommend them for van repairs! Shouldve check before accepting delivery not next day at home, bloody: raining and rushed.
TimTim said
10:42 PM Sep 15, 2022
GPO = general purpose outlet or general power outlet.
J_KZ-1 said
04:04 PM Sep 16, 2022
Tim,
Thanks for GPO reply
By the way, ment to say, trusting your tug was in good condition when you got it back and they scum didnt cause any damage ( if you got it back).
Few years ago, my niece had hers stolen, the scum smashed it and torched it.
Stay safe, Ill post an update on forum after I get the van back.
TimTim said
09:59 PM Sep 16, 2022
Unfortunately it was all smashed up and stab marks in leather seats, roof lining, tyres wrecked and numerous other things. Was new Pajero Sport received last August and stolen mid April. Got it back 2 weeks ago. Seven juveniles all with previous records but it is just a game of catch and release because of the stupid Juvenile Justices Act and no serious penalties issued by the Courts. Too many do gooders saying they are only kids.
J_KZ-1 said
12:29 PM Sep 17, 2022
Very disappointing to read about the damage to your tug.
Totally agree with you about to many do Gooders and they are only kids. Thats bull****, I know my 4 (now in mid 30s to 43) knew what was right and wrong growing and so did my older brother and me, as did my cousins.
We have became too soft as a society in regards to crime and also the excuse of on drugs so didnt know what they wher doing plus they had a difficult childhood.
I know some people who had very difficult childhoods but didnt behave in antisocial behaviour!
Sorry for rambling on, but I do get angry when I read about the softly softly approach that is prevalent know.
Tony Bev said
03:58 PM Sep 17, 2022
Hi J KZ-1
I will answer this part of the question in regards to your Setec ST-1
Is this correct re the power unit: not able to charge lithium when plugged into 240?
I have the next model inbuilt so called battery charger, the Setec ST-11
It will not charge any battery fast, as they appear to be a trickle charger
The bookwork in my motorhome, mentions about connecting 240 volt, for several days before a road trip, so that the battery is fully charged
Warren-Pat_01 said
04:39 PM Sep 18, 2022
Hi JohnZ,
I had a SETEC Series 1 in our Jayco Eagle - it was made for AGM batteries & can charge at a maximum of 5A & then trickle charges for as long as the power is applied. If you're after a higher charge current, forget it with this charger/power supply.
This SETEC provides three things -
1. a 12v power supply if the caravan/trailer does not have a battery.
2. a set of fuses that supply battery feeds off the PS.
3. a trickle charger with a maximum of 5A if a lead acid battery is fitted.
At one stage, I looked at upgrading it but the cost for the series 2 was astronomical! I did from time to time charge it off a 240v 7 stage smart charger to keep it in good condition. I did install a centre zero (-10-0-+10) ammeter so I could see what was going into, out of the battery.
The Series 2 SETEC is capable of charging up to 20A & is a basic (3 stage, I recall) smart charger for again, AGM batteries. It is what I have in my current Discovery.
It provides the same facilities as the Series 1 except for the higher charge current
However, I'm led to believe the Lithium batteries have different charge voltages to the more conventional lead acid/AGM batteries & that is why they are incompatible with each other. There are new Lithium batteries on the market that have their own battery management systems built in & you can "connect them to a conventional 12v charger." I have doubts that your SETEC would be suitable.
Your 3way fridge feed (running on 12v) should only be provided from the car via Anderson plugs & HD cable - via a "Fridge Switch" (or similar device). This allows the DC from the car to feed the fridge while the caravan is moving. With no motion, there is no DC power going to the fridge - don't worry it won't defrost in a hurry.
Anyone "qualified" to work on caravan & car electrics should not allow the battery to completely discharge - that is a recipe for disaster. At one stage a friend who knew nothing about batteries left a "new" battery in a discharged state for an extended period of time & when she went to use it, found it was dead!! I did manage to bring it back to life but it took 3 weeks, utilizing old tech, solar & new tech battery chargers.
J_KZ-1 said
08:37 PM Sep 18, 2022
To Warren-Pat01, Guru and also Swamp (Samp apologies for late acknowledgment), not forgetting Tim Tim.
Thanks to all for your input: re battery, fridge, etc. have taken note of all your comments and recommendations. Will need to sit down and do a lot of thinking, fixings, changes etc when we get the van back.
However, as TimTim recommended, I will need to give the battery a good charge and testing over a period of a few days: again when we get the van back, hopefully early in coming week.
Warren-Pat 01, I can assure that we wont be taking van back the current repairer/service agent, I rather drive to MELB. to pick up the van and take it down to the people in the Mornington Peninsula that weve used in the past. Also, not going to rely on the Setec for charging, will use the lithium charger when need or the 200W solar blanket.
Our lithium battery that was sold to us as having a BMS inbuilt! As in previous statement we have no paper work on the battery or any other items on the van, including the Setec.
Thanks to all,
John.
Warren-Pat_01 said
02:25 PM Sep 19, 2022
Thanks John,
I carry a 7A 7 stage smart charger with me (for my AGM battery), also a halogen headlight bulb to discharge the battery when required. At the time when your Series 1 SETEC was installed, battery technology on cheaper caravans was still in its infancy. They quoted me $500 to supply the upmarket Series 2 - that's when I spat the dummy.
Both of my Jayco vans were bought second hand - thankfully the previous owners left all of the manuals in the vans but you're not the first that was unlucky.
I assume someone told you that you don't lay the solar blanket against a hard surface without an adequate space for cooling behind it.
All the best.
J_KZ-1 said
11:18 PM Sep 19, 2022
Thanks Warren,
No I did not know about blanket air flow, normally hang it to the front of the Discovery Outback, where front window is, against stone guard if sun is coming that way or flat on top of table following the sun. Will have to place something under neath for air flow.
We selected blanket for storage consideration when not in use. We have a
Or table smart charger suitable for lithium to top the battery up when on 240v if needed.
When thanking in a previous post, I thanked guru- I ment Tony Bev: thanks for your input.
J_KZ-1 said
03:35 PM Sep 25, 2022
Just an update if anyone who replied to my original post.
Repairer fixed issues reasonably quickly by mid Tuesday morning (dont know about quality of repairs, will to wait for inclement weather),
Took battery out of van at 2.30 p.m. and connected to my lithium charge by 3.00 p.m. Wednesday the charger showed a full battery icon and displayed 14.41 voltage. Aprox 1 hr later used voltage meter to check it showed 14.01 volts at 6 p.m. showed 13.82 volts.
Thursday 13.8 v@ 10.00 a.m., then 12p.m. 13.65v, 4p.m. 13.48v. Could only do next check Friday morning @11.00 a.m. showed 13.44v. Had to leave Melb. to return to Rye (Mton. Pensla). We leave van in Melb.(family-big yard) due to a lack of space, also dont want it to block access to the boat (snapper/whiting season starting).
Rang family member twice on Saturday who checked battery for me and both times reading was aprox 13.44v, also this morning volts read 13.4.
It appears that its holding charge and hopefully not damaged- trusting in built BMS isnt damaged. Will get regular checks done on voltage and also going to have to work out how to check inbuilt BMS.
Still waiting on reply from supplier!
Thanks to all up above, who replied with input.
Cheers,
John.
TimTim said
03:04 PM Sep 26, 2022
Hi John,
Well those voltages sound great and given the length of time that your battery was what we though was fully discharged then it should well and truely be dead by now. My thoughts are that the BMS was actually in sleep mode and protecting the battery so what you were seeing was a vastly lower voltage through the BMS. In other words the battery voltage was never as low as you thought it was.
Test the battery by placing a load on for a while.
The BMS will not have been damaged so all good there but the only other way that you can check anything is if the BMS has Bluetooth that connects to an App on your phone. Otherwise you are good to go.
Some images of my cell voltages after I have top balanced the cells.
Good evening all,
Once again reaching out to forum for advice. Received good advise last year prior to leaving VIC. Returned late Jan this year.
Had a 20A dc to dc mppt charge installed plus 2 Andom plugs on van, 1 for solar panels and other one to plug into Ando on car ( car Ando direct to car battery). Also replaced agm battery with lithium battery.
recently the service centre total flatten the battery (used battery rather than 240 while working inside of van for 3weeks)but they assured they would charge it up and too come back in 2 days. Returned but battery still flat only plugged in to 240v.
I question them why it was still flat the blamed the age of the power unit and also the set up of 12v system and that the agm battery was old, had to advise them that it was a lithium battery 14 months old.
When they heard it was a lithium battery, the blame was back on the Setec ST-1 unit. Not suitable for lithium charge as it was an old style of unit. They then jumped start the lithium to get it out of sleep mode(?) and for me to use lithium charger at home!, I do have one which have. A friend has suggested that by them jumping the lithium out of sleep mode might have damaged it as it was down to 1.8 volts when they tested when it was flat?
Is this correct re the power unit: not able to charge lithium when plugged into 240? To be honest did not know unit was able to do this. They also advise that 3 way fridge should be run of battery not car power when driving, and have Ando from van to car not connected everytime we drive so as not to over charge battery.
I hope that all makes senses, if not Ill try again. Please any explanations be kept in simple language. Re Setec ST-1, fridge and continual plug into car ando when travelling every day?
Thanks all or any replies.
JohnZ
Hi John,
I know nothing about the Setec but will take a look at it so see what information I can give you. As for your lithium battery at 1.8v there is a possibility of significant cell damage. When they talk about jumpstarting a lithium battery what they mean is jumpstarting the BMS because it has shut down. This process does not damage the battery but the cells in your battery may well of been already damaged.
I doubt whether you have a variable DC charger but that is what you really need to charge the cells at a very low current so all you can do is try and charge your battery with the lithium charger that you have. I also suggest that where possible to charge the battery outside and keep a close eye on for any swelling.
What size is your battery and what current does your charger provide?
How did your battery get down to 1.8v? The BMS should have shut down on low voltage. What brand is your battery as at 14 months old you could also consider a warranty claim for a BMS failure.
Just to explain, a BMS is a battery management system inside the battery which act to prevent overcharging and over discharging of the individual cells and the battery as as whole.
Tim
-- Edited by TimTim on Saturday 10th of September 2022 06:22:46 PM
Lithium likes to be charged how the battery maker suggests , so what does the battery instructions say .??
The suggestion would be to
Either a
single cable
25--35 mmsq cable minimum from car battery to lithium dc2dc then to lithium . 3way Fridge connected via rv movement switch to input side of charger .
Twin cable
1x supply to charger 25--35mmsq
1x suppy to fridge 13--16mmsq
dc 2dc lithium profile
40A Enerdrive [preferred ]
40A Redarc
There are dc2dc 25amp units but with Lithium u will have a quick charge advantage with a 40amp . # provided the battery can take it .
Oh yea 400watts is conservative solar and with MPPT produces 28amps . Used on a 30 amp charger
Dont forget u only have about 5.5 hrs of PEAK SUN HOURS for the avg summer spring autumn day , winter and southern ozzy is less
200watts is rated 11amps less power losses upto 20% = 9amps x 5.5hrs = approx 50Ahr
-----xtra sun hours is a bonus
-----mppt is a bonus
both above not included in output
There are PDF on Jayco Setec on the www.
Thanks Tim Tim and swamp,
Firstly to swamp: the whole setup battery and dc2dc mppt charger was installed by auto elec that was recommended by mechanic prior us leaving VIC. so I am presuming everything was installed to requirements. No charging instructions where given to me the sparky must have kept them! Everything installed early May 2021.
As mention in my original posting, I have limit knowledge on electrical stuff relied on 3parties. Products recommended by sparky.
To TimTim,
We needed to have work done on the inside of the van: remove ceiling and other internals, they had the van for just over 3 weeks and the only explanation from them was the workers forgot to turn battery power off when not working on the van- left everything on. They used the lights on battery mode rather than 240v. I charged the battery up two weeks before: Using the portable charger, charged the battery full then!
We purchased everything from VIC Off Road on recommendation: 20 Amp dc2dc mppt charger- recognises what battery its connected to ( VIC Off Rd advicsed 20 amp was sufficient for 125 battery), 125 amp lithium battery and portable 12volt 4amp automatic charger ( recognises what type of battery its charging, sets charge for that type of battery ie. lithium, agm, etc.). Auto elect recommended this type charger in the event I needed to charge the car battery.
All products are ATEM POWER: this brand was recommended to us. Everything with system appeared to work correctly whilst travelling around WA & NT!
one further question should I be connected to car Ando all the time whilst travelling?
Hope above explanation makes sense. Thanks to both of you.
JohnZ
Does this make senses?
JohnZ
Ok irrespective of how much power they used whilst working on your van the BMS should have shut down at or before 10.00v. Generally there is a margin so it will be before 10.00v. Your BMS failed to do this so there is a fault with your battery, a fault that would always have been in existence and which you have only found out now due to certain circumstances. If they argue that it only has a 12 month warranty then you argument is that under Australian Consumer Guarantee the product should last longer than 15 months.
You can try charging it but as I said do it outside and keep an eye out for any swelling. At 2A it will take a long time to charge but at least you have a low current charger.
Was your caravan being repaired under an insurance claim. If this is the case I would also contact the insurer As you may be able to get it replaced by them
-- Edited by TimTim on Saturday 10th of September 2022 09:45:53 PM
Unfortunately not an insurance claim, personal work, old water stains, cooking stains ( from previous owners.) general tidy up. Re 1.8 v charge in battery, the salesman in the van yard apparently tested before waking battery up have to go on his word.
Ill take battery out of van tomorrow to check it and charge out in the patio and go from there.
Son rang earlier and he found some thing on the Setec ST-1 power unit some where on the internet. He states the file he found says it charges lead acid batteries he seems to thing its old technology.That answers that, wont charge lithium. Hes going to send me the link: not going to mean much to me!
Thanks for all your input. Glad to read about connecting to car.
JohnZ
Ok, so no insurance claim but as I stated go back to ATEM Power as it is a warranty claim for a faulty BMS.
Be looking for invoice today and send them an email re BMS failure. Their response will be interesting!
Couldnt respond last night as wife and youngest son and his family just got home from watching Melb. Storm getting beaten had to listen about biased umpiring. They havent had a good run: AFL- Bdogs done by Freeo, NRL- Storm done by Raiders My AFL team have been duds for almost 30years. Who cares.
I say if u use 80% battery capacity ,approx 100ahr
Avg day PSH PEAK SUN HOURS 5.5 per day to recharge 100A/hr
100A/hr divide by 5.5 hrs = 18 amps per hour roughly . In reality to have 18--20amp production is to slim of a margin . There are variations ,losses etc
300watts minimum [300w = 21amps with Mppt ] ,, but ideal 400watts solar
Hopefully this explains it better .
Yes u will find that the Setec Jayco chargers are poor performing chargers and only for wet/flooded lead acid. There primary use is as a Van park used as a dc 12v power supply . Most people convert them into fuse box use only when good solar is installed [solar and 240v and dc2dc charging ].
Hi all.
My own Jayco caravan setec battery managment and while it is not the series 1, mine is the series 3. One thing i did find out was as a battery charger, these setec units are next to usless and one thing that has been unpluged from the mains power. These setec units and acording to the owners manual on thesetec - 111 it's charging capacity is under 1 Amp ( 800 Ma ) and so wouls take a month of Sundays to charge your house batteries. I now use a Victron 12 volt 30 Amp battery charger connected to my house batteries ( 2 x 220 Ah AGM's ). This it does and has been game changer for my system. I also have 240 Watts of solar on the roof, this is also controlled by a Victron MPPT solar controller. To add to my system i also added a Victron smart bridge. This can handle 500 Amps. Free camping is now not a issue, I use gas for the 3 way fridge, but have 2 X Engle 40 Ltr fridges, Sat tv and a diesel heater for when it is cold ( a common problem in Tassie.) I also have a bit of communication radios. Battery wise and over night i have used around 5% of the battery capacity and find that by lunch time I'm back up to full capacity. The reason why i chose Victron is purly that all 3 units are bluetoothed to my phone and i can at a glace see how my batteries are performing, current going in/out of the batteries and finaly the capacity left of my batteries.
As for the setec unit, it is only used as a fuse block for the existing wireing in the caravan. All of the other new wireing has been installe to a new fuse block. I also have a small 2kva generator for and if needed to connect to the caravan and it's main use id to put mains voltage to the Victron smart charger. After free camping last Christmas for 2 weeks last year the generator was only used ( and this was the first time ) just to see how every thing was going. Not cheap but it works and has done so for around 18 months. Every time i go to the caravan and check, the batteries are at 100%. The smart charger has shut down and gone to sleep, and the solar has only been puting in the minimum charge.
-- Edited by valiant81 on Tuesday 13th of September 2022 09:57:44 AM
Thanks Valiant81, I just wanted to confirm that it is a charger as well. It would not have damaged J_KZ-1s battery but being LiFePO4 it wouldnt have fully charged it either. Good to hear that you have something that works for you
.
Hi John,
It sounds like the Setec is an old style battery charger that would charge a LIFePO4 battery but not fully. There is no reason though that it contributed to your battery failure as that was a combination of the caravan company running your battery down and a failure of the BMS to shut off at low voltage.
By my calculations it should take just over a day to recharge your battery and I should have said to check it with a multimeter from time to time to see how it is going. If it does charge up at 14.6v your battery is 100% charged but the BMS will in all probability not be set for it to charge that high so you may only get to between 13.4 and 13.8. If you then let it rest for a couple of hours we can see what the voltage settles down to. If you get to that stage then we can look at testing the battery.
Just by coincidence I finally picked up my caravan last week after having my tug vehicle stolen back in April. I now have two flat 280Ah LiFePO4 batteries where the BMSs have drawn a parasitic current. Luckily though, they are not servely discharged like yours and as they are DIY built I can recover them.
Tim
-- Edited by TimTim on Tuesday 13th of September 2022 10:51:11 AM
It is always a very wise decision to fit a 1/ 100% system shut down isolator switch ,, 2/ low voltage disconnect .. These 2 items guarantee battery protection from over discharge . Amazed at how many vans are not equipped with any of this battery protection .
Sorry for the late reply but my oldest grandson took my iPad home with him yesterday and just returned the damthing. Almost as bad as his grumpma about who owns what- all theirs I just get a loan of my things.
Thanks for the input, will have wait until we get the van back: took it back yesterday morning too have adjustments to awning installation and repairs on poo top roof canvas side, they may have van for a week?
Have been able to confirm that the ST-1 charges lead acid batteries only! Will need to give serious thoughts to reconfigure the ST-1 wiring like valiant81 has!
At least discount the charger function?
Will have SIL bring his multimeter around to check the battery.
What I notice when I plugged the caravan Ando in to the car the mppt charge in the van should the battery being charged and battery good light on. I put it on 240v charger ( out of the van) when and also check out the casing for damage. Only registered halfway to repairers that may I shouldnt have plugged the Ando in, waiting for the thing to blow!
John.
PS. Will post update when I get the van back and charged the battery up etc.
Once again thanks to all.
Forgot to add, that I decided to check the 12 v fuses in the ST-1 housing, yesterday, when I checked mppt (dont know why I decided to do that, check fuses) and low and behold on the inside of hinged cover there is a label, with at few notes and the final note states: only charge lead aid battery. Now I know for certain.
Is there a conflict between having the 12v dc2dc mppt connected to the LiFePO4 battery and the ST-1 still functioning- though it only charges Ld. Acid battery. Until I can have the batter charging function within the ST-1 disconnected, will it degrade the battery with both mppt and ST-1 functioning?
We only have the basics items in our van, have TV antenna, but aerial cable has a break somewhere within wall cavity/floor cavity and wall plug: no drama with no TV- its a 240v any way. Only rely on 12v for lights when free camping, charge with 200w folding solar blanket when F/camping.
Will have do major up grade within van in future or upgrade van that has everything that you all have.
Gone have too pull finger out and educate myself about electrical stuff, so I can do a lot myself.
Again Thanks,
John
Yes the ST-1 is only for lead acid batteries but it did not harm the battery but also it would of not been able to charge it fully. That is not necessarily a bad thing with LiFePO4 anyway.
There should not be any conflict with the ST-1 and the DC/DC MPPT controller and it sounds like the system has been working for you for over the past year simply because you do not have a large power draw. Another option on a powered site is to have your portable charger permanently plugged into a GPO and wired to your battery.
Firstly though we need to find out if your battery is still functioning. Any reply from the seller and have you managed to test the voltage yet?
Apologises for convoluted posts. I did have the battery out and got some charge, but as I mentioned last night we had to get the van on the Tuesday or no later than very earl a.m. on the following morning to have repairs done to canvas side of roof (cuts that werent there originally- I reckon it happened when they where doing ceiling lining) and adjust height of awning arms. Had to get van back to them in their time line (Tues./Wed.) or wait until late October/early November!
I stupidly reinstalled the battery in van before leaving to take van back to repairer and thats when I checked the fuses! This is the first and last time I use these repairs (connect to well know van manufacturer- not jayco but recommended by them as jayco repairer?), normally have van work done close to home on the Mornington peninsula not Melbourne.
Will have to start everything again with battery when we get van back! Still waiting on response from manufacture, checked with ombudsman, they the seller/manufacture take Upto 14/21 days to respond?
Once again thanks for your input and interest on this Tim. Sorry Tim whats a GPO?
Regards,
John ( please excuse all and any typos, grammar or left out words)
PS. Van repairer is denying liability for cuts, that werent there before they start on ceiling, but fixing as customer Care and are adjusting height of awning arms under C/Care, that we wanted that height ie. awning jamming on door when opening door- no matter if roof down or up and resting on roller on door & bending corner of door. Cant recommend them for van repairs! Shouldve check before accepting delivery not next day at home, bloody: raining and rushed.
GPO = general purpose outlet or general power outlet.
Thanks for GPO reply
By the way, ment to say, trusting your tug was in good condition when you got it back and they scum didnt cause any damage ( if you got it back).
Few years ago, my niece had hers stolen, the scum smashed it and torched it.
Stay safe, Ill post an update on forum after I get the van back.
Unfortunately it was all smashed up and stab marks in leather seats, roof lining, tyres wrecked and numerous other things. Was new Pajero Sport received last August and stolen mid April. Got it back 2 weeks ago. Seven juveniles all with previous records but it is just a game of catch and release because of the stupid Juvenile Justices Act and no serious penalties issued by the Courts. Too many do gooders saying they are only kids.
Very disappointing to read about the damage to your tug.
Totally agree with you about to many do Gooders and they are only kids. Thats bull****, I know my 4 (now in mid 30s to 43) knew what was right and wrong growing and so did my older brother and me, as did my cousins.
We have became too soft as a society in regards to crime and also the excuse of on drugs so didnt know what they wher doing plus they had a difficult childhood.
I know some people who had very difficult childhoods but didnt behave in antisocial behaviour!
Sorry for rambling on, but I do get angry when I read about the softly softly approach that is prevalent know.
Hi J KZ-1
I will answer this part of the question in regards to your Setec ST-1
I have the next model inbuilt so called battery charger, the Setec ST-11
It will not charge any battery fast, as they appear to be a trickle charger
The bookwork in my motorhome, mentions about connecting 240 volt, for several days before a road trip, so that the battery is fully charged
I had a SETEC Series 1 in our Jayco Eagle - it was made for AGM batteries & can charge at a maximum of 5A & then trickle charges for as long as the power is applied. If you're after a higher charge current, forget it with this charger/power supply.
This SETEC provides three things -
1. a 12v power supply if the caravan/trailer does not have a battery.
2. a set of fuses that supply battery feeds off the PS.
3. a trickle charger with a maximum of 5A if a lead acid battery is fitted.
At one stage, I looked at upgrading it but the cost for the series 2 was astronomical! I did from time to time charge it off a 240v 7 stage smart charger to keep it in good condition. I did install a centre zero (-10-0-+10) ammeter so I could see what was going into, out of the battery.
The Series 2 SETEC is capable of charging up to 20A & is a basic (3 stage, I recall) smart charger for again, AGM batteries. It is what I have in my current Discovery.
It provides the same facilities as the Series 1 except for the higher charge current
However, I'm led to believe the Lithium batteries have different charge voltages to the more conventional lead acid/AGM batteries & that is why they are incompatible with each other. There are new Lithium batteries on the market that have their own battery management systems built in & you can "connect them to a conventional 12v charger." I have doubts that your SETEC would be suitable.
Your 3way fridge feed (running on 12v) should only be provided from the car via Anderson plugs & HD cable - via a "Fridge Switch" (or similar device). This allows the DC from the car to feed the fridge while the caravan is moving. With no motion, there is no DC power going to the fridge - don't worry it won't defrost in a hurry.
Anyone "qualified" to work on caravan & car electrics should not allow the battery to completely discharge - that is a recipe for disaster. At one stage a friend who knew nothing about batteries left a "new" battery in a discharged state for an extended period of time & when she went to use it, found it was dead!! I did manage to bring it back to life but it took 3 weeks, utilizing old tech, solar & new tech battery chargers.
Thanks to all for your input: re battery, fridge, etc. have taken note of all your comments and recommendations. Will need to sit down and do a lot of thinking, fixings, changes etc when we get the van back.
However, as TimTim recommended, I will need to give the battery a good charge and testing over a period of a few days: again when we get the van back, hopefully early in coming week.
Warren-Pat 01, I can assure that we wont be taking van back the current repairer/service agent, I rather drive to MELB. to pick up the van and take it down to the people in the Mornington Peninsula that weve used in the past. Also, not going to rely on the Setec for charging, will use the lithium charger when need or the 200W solar blanket.
Our lithium battery that was sold to us as having a BMS inbuilt! As in previous statement we have no paper work on the battery or any other items on the van, including the Setec.
Thanks to all,
John.
I carry a 7A 7 stage smart charger with me (for my AGM battery), also a halogen headlight bulb to discharge the battery when required. At the time when your Series 1 SETEC was installed, battery technology on cheaper caravans was still in its infancy. They quoted me $500 to supply the upmarket Series 2 - that's when I spat the dummy.
Both of my Jayco vans were bought second hand - thankfully the previous owners left all of the manuals in the vans but you're not the first that was unlucky.
I assume someone told you that you don't lay the solar blanket against a hard surface without an adequate space for cooling behind it.
All the best.
No I did not know about blanket air flow, normally hang it to the front of the Discovery Outback, where front window is, against stone guard if sun is coming that way or flat on top of table following the sun. Will have to place something under neath for air flow.
We selected blanket for storage consideration when not in use. We have a
Or table smart charger suitable for lithium to top the battery up when on 240v if needed.
When thanking in a previous post, I thanked guru- I ment Tony Bev: thanks for your input.
Repairer fixed issues reasonably quickly by mid Tuesday morning (dont know about quality of repairs, will to wait for inclement weather),
Took battery out of van at 2.30 p.m. and connected to my lithium charge by 3.00 p.m. Wednesday the charger showed a full battery icon and displayed 14.41 voltage. Aprox 1 hr later used voltage meter to check it showed 14.01 volts at 6 p.m. showed 13.82 volts.
Thursday 13.8 v@ 10.00 a.m., then 12p.m. 13.65v, 4p.m. 13.48v. Could only do next check Friday morning @11.00 a.m. showed 13.44v. Had to leave Melb. to return to Rye (Mton. Pensla). We leave van in Melb.(family-big yard) due to a lack of space, also dont want it to block access to the boat (snapper/whiting season starting).
Rang family member twice on Saturday who checked battery for me and both times reading was aprox 13.44v, also this morning volts read 13.4.
It appears that its holding charge and hopefully not damaged- trusting in built BMS isnt damaged. Will get regular checks done on voltage and also going to have to work out how to check inbuilt BMS.
Still waiting on reply from supplier!
Thanks to all up above, who replied with input.
Cheers,
John.
Hi John,
Well those voltages sound great and given the length of time that your battery was what we though was fully discharged then it should well and truely be dead by now. My thoughts are that the BMS was actually in sleep mode and protecting the battery so what you were seeing was a vastly lower voltage through the BMS. In other words the battery voltage was never as low as you thought it was.
Test the battery by placing a load on for a while.
The BMS will not have been damaged so all good there but the only other way that you can check anything is if the BMS has Bluetooth that connects to an App on your phone. Otherwise you are good to go.
Some images of my cell voltages after I have top balanced the cells.