Check out the OZISUZU forum. A few members there have their Isuzus remapped.
KevinJ said
04:00 PM Jan 17, 2022
Thanks Watsea
Mike Harding said
04:50 PM Jan 17, 2022
Vehicle manufacturers put a *great* deal of time and effort into ensuring their product is optimum and would never produce a less than optimum product because they "couldn't be bothered".
I'm sure it's possible to improve performance by changing parameters in the software but I have no doubt such changes will beach the emissions rules or put the engine under more strain.
I doubt some tiny business understands more about, say, a Holden engine than do Holden.
MH - who has done a bit of automotive design work.
KevinJ said
05:24 PM Jan 17, 2022
Thanks Mike.
ive always believed that vehicle manufacturers spend millions of dollars on R&D and I cant understand why someone can simply lower suspension or change the Cam and expect something better. On this matter though, I just dont know if this is a bit of the same or an engineered option.
Aus-Kiwi said
08:30 PM Jan 17, 2022
Why do so many stuff up if original is fine . Thats right buy a new vehicle every 4 years . Remapping is a more custom
Tune for towing etc not necessary all for performance ! The original tune is very generic. A person
Not knowing what hes doing is dangerous though ! Plenty of
Systems can be made better once a few years have passed to work
Out the bugs ! Often its the aftermarket that finds the fixs !! Lift pump, pmd on my Detroit for a start .
KevinJ said
10:56 AM Jan 18, 2022
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Why do so many stuff up if original is fine . Thats right buy a new vehicle every 4 years . Remapping is a more custom Tune for towing etc not necessary all for performance ! The original tune is very generic. A person Not knowing what hes doing is dangerous though ! Plenty of Systems can be made better once a few years have passed to work Out the bugs ! Often its the aftermarket that finds the fixs !! Lift pump, pmd on my Detroit for a start .
Thanks Aus-Kiwi,
So you are saying I should not touch?
travelyounger said
02:00 PM Jan 18, 2022
KevinJ wrote:
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Why do so many stuff up if original is fine . Thats right buy a new vehicle every 4 years . Remapping is a more custom Tune for towing etc not necessary all for performance ! The original tune is very generic. A person Not knowing what hes doing is dangerous though ! Plenty of Systems can be made better once a few years have passed to work Out the bugs ! Often its the aftermarket that finds the fixs !! Lift pump, pmd on my Detroit for a start .
Thanks Aus-Kiwi,
So you are saying I should not touch?
Hi You could always put a quality chip in,better fuel economy up to 25% more torque and eliminate turbo lag and just take it off when getting serviced by Isuzu if your in the warranty period
Cheers
dorian said
02:45 PM Jan 18, 2022
What does the HSV program do to a regular Holden to make it a "Special Vehicle"? Wouldn't at least part of the refit involve "chipping"?
Mike Harding said
02:47 PM Jan 18, 2022
travelyounger wrote:
You could always put a quality chip in,better fuel economy up to 25% more torque and eliminate turbo lag and just take it off when getting serviced by Isuzu if your in the warranty period
I'm interested to hear why you think Isuzu didn't design the engine management software to do exactly as you indicate, given that it's apparently so simple?
dorian said
03:10 PM Jan 18, 2022
Isn't turbo lag a consequence of the inertia of the impeller and the rate of exhaust flow? How can chipping influence these parameters?
I have no knowledge of the firmware in automotive ECUs, but wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that there would be a compromise between performance and reliability? Most grey nomads would be towing caravans over hill and dale whereas the typical suburbanite would be hauling groceries over flat bitumen. As I see it, the optimal firmware configuration would be different for each of these usage patterns, or I am wrong to assume this? If I'm right, then the factory programming must necessarily be a compromise that is not optimal for either task.
-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 18th of January 2022 03:18:33 PM
Mike Harding said
03:46 PM Jan 18, 2022
Dorian: certainly the engine management software will be an initial compromise due to the, as you say, massive deviation in usage but, I hope, it will also be self learning and modify its behaviour to best suit the fashion in which the vehicle is being used.
The problem with the people who do reverse engineering of vehicle's engine management systems if they have no access to the massively broader dataset used by the manufacturer and therefore little to no understanding of what their changes will affect in the longer term.
I'm a full time nomad and I guess my vehicle usage is 50% towing a heavy van and 50% not - if I were to "re-chip" my Trailblazer then which should I aim for? The manufacturers put huge efforts and computer simulation time into these dilemmas and I do not, for one moment, believe "Fred's Re-chipping Service" knows more about such a technical area.
And to the poster who said "swap it back at service": you're funny :) The last vehicle I was involved in the design of had 27 processors on the CAN bus and I *assure* you they would have noticed if the main EMU module suddenly decided it was going to behave in a totally unexpected way.
Leave the damn things alone, they are too complicated to mess with these days - if you want difference performance buy a different vehicle.
Mike Harding said
04:19 PM Jan 18, 2022
A couple more thoughts:
1 - I suspect the "re-chipping" people generally gain performance from removing parameters which control emissions, something they can get away with in many countries but I wonder how well their products sell in those countries which test emissions annually?
2 - If the "re-chipping" people are so good why do they not offer their wisdom as a consultancy service to the major manufacturers? These multinationals have no pride and would instantly pay for wisdom which would afford them an increased profit.
dorian said
04:40 PM Jan 18, 2022
I don't understand what is actually involved in the chipping process.
This mob supplies a non-invasive "tuning box" which is attached to the outside of the ECU. At least I think so (they don't provide installations instructions for direct download):
How does this box affect the uC inside the ECU? Is this really "chipping" or is it something else? Are they fudging the sensors? Is it a scam?
-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 18th of January 2022 04:42:44 PM
Mike Harding said
04:46 PM Jan 18, 2022
Magic perhaps?
No idea, I'm in a rush - I have a sock drawer to reorganise.
msg said
05:01 PM Jan 18, 2022
I have no idea what the mechanic did to my transit in 2011, but I had been plagued with the engine management light coming on every couple of hundred k's.
After spending about $2000 I was exasperated with it. A lot of bits had been replaced including the EGR and the fuel pump. But still no fix. I was literally going from one dealership to the next and getting the computer reset. He said he remapped the engine and that after it did a re-learn of the way I drive it it would be fine.
Its now 2022 and I can say I have never had that problem again. Nor any other for that matter. I have since traveled 120,000ks with no issues.
dorian said
05:05 PM Jan 18, 2022
I'm wondering if you could just interpose a dummy box which intercepts the position signal from the accelerator pedal and allows all other wires to pass straight through. Then you would only need a tiny bit of electronics to tell the ECU that the accelerator has been depressed by 25%, say, when in actual fact it has only been depressed by 10%. This would give the driver the feeling that the engine is more responsive.
I'm not saying this is the way it's done, but it makes me wonder ...
Mike196 said
05:12 PM Jan 18, 2022
G'Day Dorian, there's a number of different kits available that do exactly that.
dorian said
05:17 PM Jan 18, 2022
Mike196 wrote:
G'Day Dorian, there's a number of different kits available that do exactly that.
How are they marketed? It seems to me that there is a big opportunity for a scam ...
Hmm, I should have kept reading.
So how does the unit work?
Your engine is producing 20-40% less power than it is naturally capable of. Almost all manufacturers develop one engine and limit it electronically to comply with worldwide regulations, fuel grades, climate etc. This means your engine has much more to offer in terms of power and economy. The tuning box takes live data from various engine sensors and delivers optimized signals to the ECU, making the engine perform as it should.
-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 18th of January 2022 05:22:31 PM
KevinJ said
05:27 PM Jan 18, 2022
Sounds like it is best left alone.
Jaahn said
07:00 PM Jan 18, 2022
dorian wrote:
Mike196 wrote:
G'Day Dorian, there's a number of different kits available that do exactly that.
How are they marketed? It seems to me that there is a big opportunity for a scam ...
Hmm, I should have kept reading.
So how does the unit work?Your engine is producing 20-40% less power than it is naturally capable of. Almost all manufacturers develop one engine and limit it electronically to comply with worldwide regulations, fuel grades, climate etc. This means your engine has much more to offer in terms of power and economy. The tuning box takes live data from various engine sensors and delivers optimized signals to the ECU, making the engine perform as it should.
Now we get to the crux of the matter ! The car manufacturers employ idiots that never notice these amazing oversights ! They are incapable of designing a tuning box like that, which might deliver optimised signals to the ECU, gees who'ed of thought that ?
Also they never read any of the enticing adds and test reports in the 4WD magazines and the like, all perfectly independent and no axes to grind. Hmmm
Jaahn
travelyounger said
09:37 PM Jan 18, 2022
Mike Harding wrote:
travelyounger wrote:
You could always put a quality chip in,better fuel economy up to 25% more torque and eliminate turbo lag and just take it off when getting serviced by Isuzu if your in the warranty period
I'm interested to hear why you think Isuzu didn't design the engine management software to do exactly as you indicate, given that it's apparently so simple?
No idea why Izuzu did not design the software but Ill have a guess maybe they want their engines and running gear to last the 130,000 km to limit costs to the company and whats so simple
dorian said
05:29 AM Jan 19, 2022
Jaahn wrote:
dorian wrote:
Mike196 wrote:
G'Day Dorian, there's a number of different kits available that do exactly that.
How are they marketed? It seems to me that there is a big opportunity for a scam ...
Hmm, I should have kept reading.
So how does the unit work?Your engine is producing 20-40% less power than it is naturally capable of. Almost all manufacturers develop one engine and limit it electronically to comply with worldwide regulations, fuel grades, climate etc. This means your engine has much more to offer in terms of power and economy. The tuning box takes live data from various engine sensors and delivers optimized signals to the ECU, making the engine perform as it should.
Now we get to the crux of the matter ! The car manufacturers employ idiots that never notice these amazing oversights ! They are incapable of designing a tuning box like that, which might deliver optimised signals to the ECU, gees who'ed of thought that ?
Also they never read any of the enticing adds and test reports in the 4WD magazines and the like, all perfectly independent and no axes to grind. Hmmm
Jaahn
Yes, it appears to be a lot of marketing hype (aka "BS"). Anyway, let's see their technical explanation of how their gadget works:
They are saying that the combustion chamber "always has a remainder of air (oxygen) that is not used for combustion. Depending on the engine manufacturer this remainder is anywhere from 20% up to an astonishing 50%! When we inject extra diesel under these conditions we create extra engine power almost 1 to 1 related to the extra amount of diesel we have injected."
It seems to me that they may be fudging the output of the airflow sensor so that the ECU thinks that the airflow is greater than it really is, thereby prompting the ECU to squirt more fuel.
Phlipper said
04:37 PM Jan 19, 2022
I wonder if tinkering with vehicles settings, as in remapping would void any warranty claims you may have. Maybe if you want better towing and performance buy a better car is smarter idea ? If it aint broke ... leave it alone has always been my motto.
deverall11 said
05:39 PM Jan 19, 2022
Here's my two cents worth.
Vehicle is a 2013 VDJ LandCruiser.
I have had a chip and the vehicle performed well and fuel consumption
was reduced due to the torque moved lower in the rev range, hence lower revs.
Upgraded to a remap. Vehicle performed even better.
Mushy throttle pedal is now a lot more responsive, tows even easier
and fuel consumption is around mid 10s to 11 litre per 100km.
Better in cooler weather. The bull bar as well as adding weight
it also upsets the aerodynamics of the vehicle.
If you are looking at doing something, I would recommend
going the ECU remap over a chip. A chip is limited in function
because it can only modify the signal sent by the ECU.
The one and only rule to a remap is to go with a well
known tuner that has the ability to give you the tune you are
looking for. EG: Towing tune. Having said that Roos Systems offer
three tunes off the shelf, for a 200 series LandCruiser.
Most of the 'against' comment are from people who have never
had real experience and/or who know of some one who had a bad
experience. The only common ground is the fact that you may
shorten the life of the engine but there's a good chance you will
have disposed of the vehicle before this happens.
A note for Dorian:
May I suggest you get familiar with the concept of
Variable Vane turbos. It may help you understand the
tuning process and why it works.
Cheers,
Larry
dorian said
04:15 AM Jan 20, 2022
What is a "chip" and what is a "remap"?
When an ECU is "chipped", does this mean that all the modifications are done externally? Does "remapping" refer to modifications to the internal firmware of the ECU?
The terminology seems counterintuitive to me.
Kebbin said
07:05 AM Jan 20, 2022
Remapping vs Chipping are different procedures and according to prominent Deisel services you need to make an informed decision.
-- Edited by Kebbin on Thursday 20th of January 2022 07:09:07 AM
deverall11 said
10:41 AM Jan 20, 2022
dorian wrote:
What is a "chip" and what is a "remap"?
When an ECU is "chipped", does this mean that all the modifications are done externally? Does "remapping" refer to modifications to the internal firmware of the ECU?
The terminology seems counterintuitive to me.
In a nutshell:
A chip is an bit of electronics that receives the signal sent by the ECU and modifies it
before sending on the modified instruction. This is very limited in its function as
it is only a modification to the original signal as sent by the ECU.
These could include things like longer opening of the injectors for example.
A remap is a complete rewrite of the programming of the ECU from what the
manufacturer put out. This gives the tuner the opportunity to write the programming
instructions to suit the customer's requirement such as a 'towing' tune whereby the
emphasis is in creating more torque lower down the rev band where you will be
spending time when towing. A 'race' or 'sports' tune would be programming the ECU
to make more power possibly across the range but probably in the higher part
of the rev band where you would be spending time when racing. Also fine tuning
for a certain circuit if circuit racing. For example you may have a slight variation when
racing at Bathurst as compared to racing at the Gold Coast. One is a more open circuit
with higher top speeds vs one that is slower but requires getting from one corner to
the other as quick as possible. This is a generic explanation.
Also with modern diesel engines having variable vane turbos, one practice would be to
allow the turbos to 'come in' earlier by tweaking the movement of the vanes which are
controlled by a servo motor.
Hope this helps you to better understand. Anymore, I would suggest using Google.
Cheers,
Larry
Bass said
11:08 AM Jan 20, 2022
My 2 bobs worth... we had our 2012 D Max chipped ( german brand ) and really didn't notice any difference towing our 3.1t van but left it on any way. a trip to cape york in 2015 was interesting 4 D Max's and 105 series, 2 maxy's chipped, 1 maxy remapped, 1 maxy standard, apart from the fact that mine was the only vechile to make it back to victoria, there seemed to be no real difference in performance of the maxy's.
had my 200 series chiped but removed it, fuel ecconomy went north, and I reckon that any vechile that can tow a 3.3t van up to Eungella dam from MackayQLD with out needing low range has enuf power.
Bass
KevinJ said
05:57 PM Jan 20, 2022
I started this thread and am so appreciative of the quality responses and opinions.
I might ask Isuzu Ute if they would tune the MU-X for towing just before I go away on longer trips and then tune it for town when I am home for any length of time.
Someone who owns an ISUZU MU-X recently told me that they had a remapping done of their engine.
I know a fair amount about petrol engines though absolutely nothing about diesel engines.
I have a 2020 MU-X and am wondering on the merits of doing the same as I am led to believe it gives increased horsepower and fuel economy.
Hopefully there are some experts here who can advise me which way to go.
These two links are what I have found so far.
https://magazine.unsealed4x4.com.au/unsealed-4x4-issue-066/the-tuner-s-guide-isuzu-d-max-and-mu-x
https://www.justdieselperformance.com.au/isuzu-dmax-mux/
I look forward to your suggestions.
Thanks Watsea
Vehicle manufacturers put a *great* deal of time and effort into ensuring their product is optimum and would never produce a less than optimum product because they "couldn't be bothered".
I'm sure it's possible to improve performance by changing parameters in the software but I have no doubt such changes will beach the emissions rules or put the engine under more strain.
I doubt some tiny business understands more about, say, a Holden engine than do Holden.
MH - who has done a bit of automotive design work.
Thanks Mike.
ive always believed that vehicle manufacturers spend millions of dollars on R&D and I cant understand why someone can simply lower suspension or change the Cam and expect something better. On this matter though, I just dont know if this is a bit of the same or an engineered option.
Tune for towing etc not necessary all for performance ! The original tune is very generic. A person
Not knowing what hes doing is dangerous though ! Plenty of
Systems can be made better once a few years have passed to work
Out the bugs ! Often its the aftermarket that finds the fixs !! Lift pump, pmd on my Detroit for a start .
Thanks Aus-Kiwi,
So you are saying I should not touch?
I'm interested to hear why you think Isuzu didn't design the engine management software to do exactly as you indicate, given that it's apparently so simple?
Isn't turbo lag a consequence of the inertia of the impeller and the rate of exhaust flow? How can chipping influence these parameters?
I have no knowledge of the firmware in automotive ECUs, but wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that there would be a compromise between performance and reliability? Most grey nomads would be towing caravans over hill and dale whereas the typical suburbanite would be hauling groceries over flat bitumen. As I see it, the optimal firmware configuration would be different for each of these usage patterns, or I am wrong to assume this? If I'm right, then the factory programming must necessarily be a compromise that is not optimal for either task.
-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 18th of January 2022 03:18:33 PM
Dorian: certainly the engine management software will be an initial compromise due to the, as you say, massive deviation in usage but, I hope, it will also be self learning and modify its behaviour to best suit the fashion in which the vehicle is being used.
The problem with the people who do reverse engineering of vehicle's engine management systems if they have no access to the massively broader dataset used by the manufacturer and therefore little to no understanding of what their changes will affect in the longer term.
I'm a full time nomad and I guess my vehicle usage is 50% towing a heavy van and 50% not - if I were to "re-chip" my Trailblazer then which should I aim for? The manufacturers put huge efforts and computer simulation time into these dilemmas and I do not, for one moment, believe "Fred's Re-chipping Service" knows more about such a technical area.
And to the poster who said "swap it back at service": you're funny :) The last vehicle I was involved in the design of had 27 processors on the CAN bus and I *assure* you they would have noticed if the main EMU module suddenly decided it was going to behave in a totally unexpected way.
Leave the damn things alone, they are too complicated to mess with these days - if you want difference performance buy a different vehicle.
A couple more thoughts:
1 - I suspect the "re-chipping" people generally gain performance from removing parameters which control emissions, something they can get away with in many countries but I wonder how well their products sell in those countries which test emissions annually?
2 - If the "re-chipping" people are so good why do they not offer their wisdom as a consultancy service to the major manufacturers? These multinationals have no pride and would instantly pay for wisdom which would afford them an increased profit.
I don't understand what is actually involved in the chipping process.
This mob supplies a non-invasive "tuning box" which is attached to the outside of the ECU. At least I think so (they don't provide installations instructions for direct download):
https://www.chipmydiesel.com.au/docs/diesel-chip-tuning/faq/4.html
How does this box affect the uC inside the ECU? Is this really "chipping" or is it something else? Are they fudging the sensors? Is it a scam?
-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 18th of January 2022 04:42:44 PM
Magic perhaps?
No idea, I'm in a rush - I have a sock drawer to reorganise.
After spending about $2000 I was exasperated with it. A lot of bits had been replaced including the EGR and the fuel pump. But still no fix. I was literally going from one dealership to the next and getting the computer reset. He said he remapped the engine and that after it did a re-learn of the way I drive it it would be fine.
Its now 2022 and I can say I have never had that problem again. Nor any other for that matter. I have since traveled 120,000ks with no issues.
I'm not saying this is the way it's done, but it makes me wonder ...
G'Day Dorian, there's a number of different kits available that do exactly that.
How are they marketed? It seems to me that there is a big opportunity for a scam ...
Hmm, I should have kept reading.
So how does the unit work?
Your engine is producing 20-40% less power than it is naturally capable of. Almost all manufacturers develop one engine and limit it electronically to comply with worldwide regulations, fuel grades, climate etc. This means your engine has much more to offer in terms of power and economy. The tuning box takes live data from various engine sensors and delivers optimized signals to the ECU, making the engine perform as it should.
-- Edited by dorian on Tuesday 18th of January 2022 05:22:31 PM
Sounds like it is best left alone.
Now we get to the crux of the matter ! The car manufacturers employ idiots that never notice these amazing oversights ! They are incapable of designing a tuning box like that, which might deliver optimised signals to the ECU, gees who'ed of thought that ?
Also they never read any of the enticing adds and test reports in the 4WD magazines and the like, all perfectly independent and no axes to grind. Hmmm
Jaahn
No idea why Izuzu did not design the software but Ill have a guess maybe they want their engines and running gear to last the 130,000 km to limit costs to the company and whats so simple
Yes, it appears to be a lot of marketing hype (aka "BS"). Anyway, let's see their technical explanation of how their gadget works:
http://www.chipmydiesel.com/pdf/tech.pdf
They are saying that the combustion chamber "always has a remainder of air (oxygen) that is not used for combustion. Depending on the engine manufacturer this remainder is anywhere from 20% up to an astonishing 50%! When we inject extra diesel under these conditions we create extra engine power almost 1 to 1 related to the extra amount of diesel we have injected."
It seems to me that they may be fudging the output of the airflow sensor so that the ECU thinks that the airflow is greater than it really is, thereby prompting the ECU to squirt more fuel.
Vehicle is a 2013 VDJ LandCruiser.
I have had a chip and the vehicle performed well and fuel consumption
was reduced due to the torque moved lower in the rev range, hence lower revs.
Upgraded to a remap. Vehicle performed even better.
Mushy throttle pedal is now a lot more responsive, tows even easier
and fuel consumption is around mid 10s to 11 litre per 100km.
Better in cooler weather. The bull bar as well as adding weight
it also upsets the aerodynamics of the vehicle.
If you are looking at doing something, I would recommend
going the ECU remap over a chip. A chip is limited in function
because it can only modify the signal sent by the ECU.
The one and only rule to a remap is to go with a well
known tuner that has the ability to give you the tune you are
looking for. EG: Towing tune. Having said that Roos Systems offer
three tunes off the shelf, for a 200 series LandCruiser.
Most of the 'against' comment are from people who have never
had real experience and/or who know of some one who had a bad
experience. The only common ground is the fact that you may
shorten the life of the engine but there's a good chance you will
have disposed of the vehicle before this happens.
A note for Dorian:
May I suggest you get familiar with the concept of
Variable Vane turbos. It may help you understand the
tuning process and why it works.
Cheers,
Larry
What is a "chip" and what is a "remap"?
When an ECU is "chipped", does this mean that all the modifications are done externally? Does "remapping" refer to modifications to the internal firmware of the ECU?
The terminology seems counterintuitive to me.
Remapping vs Chipping are different procedures and according to prominent Deisel services you need to make an informed decision.
https://www.torqit.com.au/whats-the-difference-between-chipping-and-remapping/
https://www.berrimadiesel.com/diesel-archives/removable-remap
-- Edited by Kebbin on Thursday 20th of January 2022 07:09:07 AM
In a nutshell:
A chip is an bit of electronics that receives the signal sent by the ECU and modifies it
before sending on the modified instruction. This is very limited in its function as
it is only a modification to the original signal as sent by the ECU.
These could include things like longer opening of the injectors for example.
A remap is a complete rewrite of the programming of the ECU from what the
manufacturer put out. This gives the tuner the opportunity to write the programming
instructions to suit the customer's requirement such as a 'towing' tune whereby the
emphasis is in creating more torque lower down the rev band where you will be
spending time when towing. A 'race' or 'sports' tune would be programming the ECU
to make more power possibly across the range but probably in the higher part
of the rev band where you would be spending time when racing. Also fine tuning
for a certain circuit if circuit racing. For example you may have a slight variation when
racing at Bathurst as compared to racing at the Gold Coast. One is a more open circuit
with higher top speeds vs one that is slower but requires getting from one corner to
the other as quick as possible. This is a generic explanation.
Also with modern diesel engines having variable vane turbos, one practice would be to
allow the turbos to 'come in' earlier by tweaking the movement of the vanes which are
controlled by a servo motor.
Hope this helps you to better understand. Anymore, I would suggest using Google.
Cheers,
Larry
had my 200 series chiped but removed it, fuel ecconomy went north, and I reckon that any vechile that can tow a 3.3t van up to Eungella dam from MackayQLD with out needing low range has enuf power.
Bass
I started this thread and am so appreciative of the quality responses and opinions.
I might ask Isuzu Ute if they would tune the MU-X for towing just before I go away on longer trips and then tune it for town when I am home for any length of time.
Thoughts???