Good Morning all

I am looking to purchase a replacement tow vehicle for my Jayco Silverline Outback Caravan. The van has an ATM of 3,375Kg a GTM of 3,167Kg, a Tar Mass of 2,900 Kg. The ball weight Maximum is 256Kg.  I currently tow with a Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 2015 4x4 with a power of 184KW and 550Nm.  The Jeep tow the van very well even over steep hills but the Jeep being 6+ years old needs replacement.

The suggested replacement vehicle within our budget is the new 2021/22 Isuzu MU/X LS-T 4x4. The weights work out Ok on the legal side with 350Kg load capacity left in the TUG.

My question relates to the actual capability of the Isuzu which is rated at 140Kw and 450 Nm. (Much less than the jeep)

Does anybody have any experience with the new 2021/22 Isuzu MUX 4x4 Towing a van of a similar size. I would greatly appreciate you feedback.

I'm taking an MUX for a test drive on 14/1/22 so any comments before then would be appreciated.

Hi Angry,
You will probably get a number of comments regarding the towing ability of the new MUX with your caravan.
My comment is about what you have stated as the max tow ball weight of 256kg.
Most "gurus" state that for good stability of the van, a tow ball weight of at least 10% of the loaded caravan weight is better.
On the Compliance Plate, Jayco and many other manufacturers state a tow ball weight of the empty van, not a loaded van, so I am not sure where you obtained the maximum ball weight figure.

If you were to load your van to its maximum so that was at its ATM of 3,375kg, 10% of the fully loaded van would be 338kg as your tow ball weight. That weight would have an impact on how well a new MUX would be suitable and perform as a tow vehicle, including how much you can load into that vehicle.

I said, more comments are likely.

AngryAnt50 wrote:

---

Good Morning all

I am looking to purchase a replacement tow vehicle for my Jayco Silverline Outback Caravan. The van has an ATM of 3,375Kg a GTM of 3,167Kg, a Tar Mass of 2,900 Kg. The ball weight Maximum is 256Kg.  I currently tow with a Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 2015 4x4 with a power of 184KW and 550Nm.  The Jeep tow the van very well even over steep hills but the Jeep being 6+ years old needs replacement.

The suggested replacement vehicle within our budget is the new 2021/22 Isuzu MU/X LS-T 4x4. The weights work out Ok on the legal side with 350Kg load capacity left in the TUG.

My question relates to the actual capability of the Isuzu which is rated at 140Kw and 450 Nm. (Much less than the jeep)

Does anybody have any experience with the new 2021/22 Isuzu MUX 4x4 Towing a van of a similar size. I would greatly appreciate you feedback.

I'm taking an MUX for a test drive on 14/1/22 so any comments before then would be appreciated.

---

 Hi Steve.Don't even THINK about using an MUX to tow that van.There is NO WAY known that that car can SAFELY tow that van.No Way.Details later as I have a bit on my plate at the moment,but forget the MUX or indeed any of the popular twin cab utes.Later today I will try to find time to post details,but the car is too light and has not enough rear axle weight carrying capacity.As an aside,if you could put up a photo of tge van's compliance plate that would help,as something doesn't add up here.Cheers

AngryAnt50 wrote:

---

Hi Watsea
Thanks for your response.
Jayco love to do things differently to make life difficult. The Compliance plate actually says that the maximum allowed ball weight is 256Kg. The trailer is a tandom axcel and when fully loaded the ball weight is around 250Kg. I keep an eye on this with a ball weight measuring device.
However, my question relates to the ABILITY OF THE ISUZU MUX 2020/21 to actually tow this van. Not a LEGAL question but, DOES IT HAVE ENOUGH GRUNT.

---

 As Ted has pointed out the towball weight on the compliance plate is what that weight was when the van left the factory,and means nothing.  This is why I asked could you post a photo of the compliance plate on the van.Next point is that towball scales are wildly inaccurate,and are at best a rough guide.Some time ago I tested several different brands and the difference in readings was huge.What's more is that when I had the towball weight done accurately,none of the towball scales was within cooeee of the actual weight.Back to the car.If safety is of any concern always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% more than the weight on the wheels of the van. This means that to safely tow your laden van you need a car with GVM of 3500kg.The MUX has a GVM of a low 2800kg and I believe that the rear axle is rated at only 1600kg.More problems.  The GCM,or total allowed weight of car and van,is a low 5900kg,so if you hookup that van to a perfectly loaded MUX,(impossible) the weight on the van's wheels (GTM) is around 17% greater than the weight on the car's wheels.Forget it,as this would be an accident looking for a place to happen.And running around with towball weight of 7.5% with that combination is an exercise in stupidity.However, if you could post a photo of the van's compliance plate we may be able to offer assistance but I will say again that the MUX cannot safely tow that van.Cheers

P.S I have a friend who did "The Big lap" in an MUX towing a 2500kg van.He absolutely loves the car but said that it struggled on some hills,and that he often felt the car being moved around by the 2500kg van when he was being overtaken,or in windy conditions.Your van weighs 3375kg.No way known.

Maths:- Tare of car 2070kg.ATM of van 3375kg.GCM (total allowed weight of car and van) 5900kg. Deduct ATM 3375kg from GCM 5900kg and we get 2525kg.You'll NEVER reach that figure either,as towball takes weight OFF front axle and throws it onto your suoer-lightweight rear axle.Now,even at a dangerously low 250kg ball weight,we have only 455kg (2525-2070kg) left.No passengers.No Fuel.No luggage.No tools.No accounting for weight of actual towbar structure,and NO HOPE.You may do well to consider the ute suggested by another member,as none of the popular twin-cab utes will safely do the job,and neither will the much vaunted LC200. Your choices are thus limited,and these facts are not what you wanted to hear,but it is better to be pizzed off than dead,surely? But they are unfortunately just that.Facts. And don't fall for the crap you'll be fed by a salesman whose commission based income is dependent on him getting a sale.They invariably know NOTHING about weights,and even if they do they certainly are not going to say anything that may cost a sald.Recently I was in a yard where I git talking to a chap who'd just traded an LC200 on a RAM 1500 because "It can tow 4500kg" he proudly announced.After I had demonstrated that that vehicle couldn't safely tow much more than about 3000kg he cancelled his order and drove off in his LC200.Some very angry salesmen!

 P.P.S You ask  "Does it have enough grunt?" NO

I was typing this as Iana and Yobarr responded, so there is a bit of overlap. But I agree with them. It is a totally unsuitable tow vehicle for that van unless you are just planning to relocate the van and not go on holidays. On the highway? No way!!

Also, re towball scales, I had one and threw it out. Some say they are OK, but most don't.

So, why is the MUX totally unsuitable for that van? A few strong reasons.

3,375kg is a heavy van for the common 4WD. While you can get away with having a lighter tow vehicle, it is better for it to be heavier than the van. Some would say essential. The more you depart from that, the less safe it becomes. The Isuzu specs show the maximum the MUX can weigh is 2,800kg. Except that 2,800kg is not feasible because the van fully loaded takes up 3,375kg of the 5,900kg GCM. Meaning the laden MUX can now only weigh 2,525kg including passengers, etc. The van is 850kg heavier than the maximum the MUX can weigh, a dreadful imbalance. Add the towball weight of 250kg and you just squeeze in under the MUX GVM of 2,800kg.

You are never going to achieve safe travel with that disparity in weights. The more the disparity, the more easily sway becomes uncontrollable.

A longer wheelbase helps but the 2.855 wheelbase of the MUX could hardly be called long. Compare that the 3.220 wheelbase of the Ford Ranger. Wheelbase makes a huge difference. The shorter the wheelbase, the more easily sway becomes uncontrollable. This is the second whammy.

Then, if the van truly does have a limit of 256kg towball load (very unusual), then it leans towards unsafe load distribution. If you have a heavy tow vehicle with long wheelbase then it matters less. But the lighter the tow vehicle the more it matters. The MUX falls strongly into that higher risk category. This is the third less desirable situation that increases your risk of sway becoming uncontrollable.

If it truly is a towball limit, then it probably forces more weight to be loaded behind the van axles. This also is a well known sway inducer ... how many reasons do you need?

Then there is the quite light rear axle load of the MUX. At 1,600kg it is lighter than just about any of the commonly discussed vehicles to tow vans in the larger sizes. Don't forget that the towball load of 250kg will add about another 50% of that weight to the rear axle. You really need to know what the unladen rear axle load is because the maximum axle loading is easily exceeded and will probably prohibit loading the MUX to its maximum 2,800kg. And we have not even mentioned how much weight will be lifted off the MUX front wheels.

Safety is a far more important consideration than "Can a MUX tow this van up that hill?". Did I answer your question about power? No and I'm not going to.

If you go ahead, please let me know where you will be travelling so I can avoid that road.

-- Edited by Are We Lost on Saturday 8th of January 2022 03:19:39 PM

Are We Lost wrote:

---

I was typing this as Iana and Yobarr responded, so there is a bit of overlap. But I agree with them. It is a totally unsuitable tow vehicle for that van unless you are just planning to relocate the van and not go on holidays. On the highway? No way!!

Also, re towball scales, I had one and threw it out. Some say they are OK, but most don't.

So, why is the MUX totally unsuitable for that van? A few strong reasons.

3,375kg is a heavy van for the common 4WD. While you can get away with having a lighter tow vehicle, it is better for it to be heavier than the van. Some would say essential. The more you depart from that, the less safe it becomes. The Isuzu specs show the maximum the MUX can weigh is 2,800kg. Except that 2,800kg is not feasible because the van fully loaded takes up 3,375kg of the 5,900kg GCM. Meaning the laden MUX can now only weigh 2,525kg including passengers, etc. The van is 850kg heavier than the maximum the MUX can weigh, a dreadful imbalance. Add the towball weight of 250kg and you just squeeze in under the MUX GVM of 2,800kg.

You are never going to achieve safe travel with that disparity in weights. The more the disparity, the more easily sway becomes uncontrollable.

A longer wheelbase helps but the 2.855 wheelbase of the MUX could hardly be called long. Compare that the 3.220 wheelbase of the Ford Ranger. Wheelbase makes a huge difference. The shorter the wheelbase, the more easily sway becomes uncontrollable. This is the second whammy.

Then, if the van truly does have a limit of 256kg towball load (very unusual), then it leans towards unsafe load distribution. If you have a heavy tow vehicle with long wheelbase then it matters less. But the lighter the tow vehicle the more it matters. The MUX falls strongly into that higher risk category. This is the third less desirable situation that increases your risk of sway becoming uncontrollable.

If it truly is a towball limit, then it probably forces more weight to be loaded behind the van axles. This also is a well known sway inducer ... how many reasons do you need?

Then there is the quite light rear axle load of the MUX. At 1,600kg it is lighter than just about any of the commonly discussed vehicles to tow vans in the larger sizes. Don't forget that the towball load of 250kg will add about another 50% of that weight to the rear axle. You really need to know what the unladen rear axle load  is because the maximum axle loading is easily exceeded and will probably prohibit loading the MUX to its maximum 2,800kg. And we have not even mentioned how much weight will be lifted off the MUX front wheels.

Safety is a far more important consideration than "Can a MUX tow this van up that hill?". Did I answer your question about power? No and I'm not going to.

If you go ahead, please let me know where you will be travelling so I can avoid that road.

---

Great post that shows a good understanding of weights,physics and dynamics.Good to see you've pointed out the problems of the short wheelbase and super-lightweight rear axle on this car.To add to your post,the weight on the rear axle at tare is 1080kg,but that's with no fuel and no towbar structure.

Thanks Yobarr.

So with rear axle load at Tare of 1080, add 250kg towball means (approx) 375kg added to the rear axle. Only 145kg to reach the limit.

Add two passengers and a few things in the back seat and you are almost there. So it's not feasible to even load to the suggested load of 2.525kg calculated in the previous post. Don't think about putting much in the boot area.

Towing a van say 1,000kg lighter, I think a MUX would certainly be a good compromise between car and workhorse. Not everyone wants to drive a truck. But for a heavy van the available choices get pretty thin.

I have a Ford Ranger, which is a substantially more capable tow vehicle. Longer wheelbase, heavier, greater GVM, more payload, higher axle limit. But there is no way I would recommend it to tow 3,375kg. Also my van has slightly more than 10% weight on the towball.

Are We Lost wrote:

---

Thanks Yobarr.

So with rear axle load at Tare of 1080, add 250kg towball means (approx) 375kg added to the rear axle. Only 145kg to reach the limit.

Add two passengers and a few things in the back seat and you are almost there. So it's not feasible to even load to the suggested load of 2.525kg calculated in the previous post. Don't think about putting much in the boot area.

Towing a van say 1,000kg lighter, I think a MUX would certainly be a good compromise between car and workhorse. Not everyone wants to drive a truck. But for a heavy van the available choices get pretty thin.

I have a Ford Ranger, which is a substantially more capable tow vehicle. Longer wheelbase, heavier, greater GVM, more payload, higher axle limit. But there is no way I would recommend it to tow 3,375kg. Also my van has slightly more than 10% weight on the towball.

---

 You're onto it Stephen.The Ranger is good to tow up to around 3100kg,but that's about it.As you say,once again the rear axle is the problem at only 1870kg (?) but the car is helped by having a decent wheelbase and a good GVM.And in the figures above,in the first line of your post,we still don't have weight of towbar structure (40kg?) fuel (60kg?) or the all important driver! 2525kg? Tell 'em they're dreamin'.

Stewart wrote:

---

Hi in October I posted pictures of a Isuzu towing a caravan, that had rolled over going down the Cardwell range. It was not a pretty sight. I can't post a link to the photos now from my phone. Someone else might be able to. Cheers Stewart

---

 Probably not what you're referring to,but this happened on the Kuranda Range and perhaps shows why you shouldn't tow heavy vans with little cars.If safety is of any concern,always the weight on the car's wheels should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the van's wheels.Cheers

oldbloke wrote:

---

So, dont be surprised if Angryant50 doesnt return.

He was very clear he was asking about grunt. Not weights and legalities.

---

 And I told him that the MUX wouldn't have anywhere near the  "grunt" that his present vehicle has. He already had written that the power of the MUX was "much less than the jeep".Silly question when one engine produces 30% more power than the other,or perhaps the MUX's horses (horsepower (kw)) are bigger than the horses used in the Jeep? The OP seemed to know little about weights when he claims that his caravan has a "maximum  ball weight of 256kg" shortly after advising that the ATM is 3375kg.If this were true,the towball weight is just over 7% of ATM and I don't believe that Jayco would have done that,which is why I asked could he take a photo of the compliance plate. His total confusion about weights was further displayed when he wrote that he had "350kg load capacity left in the tug".He had nothing left as there was still No fuel,(70kg) No towbar structure,(45kg?) No luggage,(?)No tools,No driver(80kg) No passengers,(120kg)Not enough ball weigh because instead of running the claimed 256kg towball weight he should have been running 340kg,assuming the generally accepted 10% towball weight,(85kg) and No consideration for the fact that even a 256kg towball weight would take well over 100kg OFF the front axle and transfer it to the super-lightweight rear axle of the car.(Another 100kg) Instantly overloaded,unsafe and uninsured.Surely it would be remiss of members not to point out these truths to the OP in an effort to help him,and to save him from a lot of heartache and potential financial loss,not to mention the risk to his safety and that of others on the road? Perhaps the OP  should take Ian's advice about a suitable tow vehicle? Problem solved!  Cheers.

P.S The highlighted text in the last line of the post that I made at 1.08pm today shows that I DID in fact answer his question,with only one word.NO  I went on to detail the experiences of a friend who did the "Big Lap" in an MUX,towing only 2500kg.Not good.

P.P.S The more I think about this thread the more I am inclined to agree with Ian's suggestion that it all was a hoax.Early on in the thread I stated that "something doesn't add up here".

AngryAnt50 wrote:

---

Hi All,

Thanks for your comments. They have basically confirmed what I thought (as far as the power goes). The comments on the weights are appreciated.

As a result of these comments and others, I have decided to no longer persue the Isuzu MU/X as a tow vehicle.

I will resume my search.

If anbody has a suggestion as to a suitable (New) tow vehicle for my van under the $100K drive away price, I would be interested.

Thanks again for your advice.

---

 Hi Stephen.Thanks for letting us know of your making such a responsible decision.Glad we could help you.The MUX is a fantastic car for many people but not in your situation.As far as other vehicles go I don't know of much in your price range,but,as Ian suggested,you might like to consider an LC79 twin-cab. Old,rough and lacking many of the modern gimmicks,but the only one among the popular twin-cabs that can tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer. Nothing compares nor competes.Please let us know of any other vehicle you may be considering so that we can perhaps offer advice.Good luck with your search,and could I praise you for being so receptive to advice,and being so responsible in your search.Best of luck! Cheers

P.S Any chance of posting a photo of your van's compliance plate for us to have a look at?

Attached is the Caravan Compliance plate photo as requested. 

As an owner of a 2020 MUX, I can say that it tows very well with up to about 2500 KG though I normally drive at between 80 KM/H and 90 KM/H which probably helps.  It has heaps of grunt for what I tow with power to spare.  Very well balanced and feels very safe.

I believe the new model has a redesigned engine so I can't comment on that but it may perform better.

From a science point of view though, it looks like you will be well and truly over loaded and well and truly out of safe TBW ratio and GVM to GTM ratio.

I have attached a spreadsheet with some figures for you.  You can play with the numbers yourself.  See the "Load calculator" TAB. See the "Instructions" TAB to see how it all works.

For the MUX specs on the "Tugs and Vans" TAB, the following were taken from the Isuzu web site:

Kerb weight, Max Payload, Max TBW, Fuel, GVM, Braked Trailer, GCM, Wheelbase, Max Front Axle, Max Rear Axle

The other MUX specs on the "Tugs and Vans" TAB, I have taken from my own vehicle or estimated.

For the Van specs, I have used your numbers for:

Tare, ATM, GTM

The other van specs on the "Tugs and Vans" TAB, I have estimated.

Either way, you should get "Actuals" from a weighbridge.

iana wrote:

---

The Gross Combined Mass of the Jeep Cherokee V8 that I have read is 6099kg. The GCM of the Toyota Landcruiser LC 79 single cab is 6900kg. The dual cab GCM is slightly less. These are available at auctions with about 140km's on the clock, only just run in. What you get is a worked vehicle, which has the design of the seventies, no comfort, not much in modern accessories and you pay a fortune for it. It does have that extra capacity over all of our utes except the American imports. For an extra $10,000, you can have an auto transmission fitted to replace the six speed manual. The dual cabs are now as scarce as hens teeth, and the asking price is premium.
By getting a dual cab, that's fitted with a canopy, you can move the heavy gear from the van into the rear of the ute.
The other vehicles to look at are the Iveco light trucks, but then parking at the supermarket becomes a problem.
Don't know anything about the American utes, except the Ram 1500 may not do the job.

Our Silverline is slightly lighter, so I am assuming your van has the double width slide out. The BT50 and Ranger handle it OK, but we drive carefully and watch our temperatures. But the GCM has always been a problem.

Your compliance plate did not show.

---

 Good advice highlighted above,Ian,and to help Stephen I will add that the twin-cab LC79 has a GCM of 6800kg.With my car I run at 6800kg GCM,legal on every axle.At this weight I still get 5.8km/litre,or around 17 litres/100km.As you say,nothing comes close until you get up among the RAM 2500 and 3500s,or Chevy Silverado or F250 etc.As you suggest,the RAM 1500 isn't in the race,I'm sorry to say,as they are a beautiful car to tow up to around 3000kg as a PIG trailer,but that's it.Cheers

AngryAnt50 wrote:

---

Attached is the Caravan Compliance plate photo as requested. 

---

 Hmmm.Don't know how Jayco can suggest a MAXIMUM  ball weight that is only around 7% of ATM when the generally accepted figure for safe towing is 10%.The towball weight at tare is established by simply deducting the GTM from the ATM and means nothing,but having an axle capacity of 3333kg,and loading to that figure,leaves towball weight of only 42kg? Montie,our resident RV dealer who knows all about weights after many years in the industry may be able to offer advice.Good luck.Cheers

Hi

Here is the Puictures qwe took on the Cardwell Range in October

Blocked the highway for several hours

Cheers stewart

TheHeaths wrote:

---

You can approach Jayco to get them to remove the Maximum Ball Weight from the VIN plate.

They did it for a couple of years and it was calculated by taking the weighed Tare Tow Ball Weight, and adding 10% of the load allowance, in this case 48kg being the rounded up amount of 10% of the 475kg load allowance.

I had the same issue and had the MTBW removed and a new VIN plate issued.

I dont know if they will still do this as I had it done in about 2015.

---

 Thanks Ian.Good information provided there,and if that could be easily done at least the allowed towball weight,while not ideal,would be up to over 9% of ATM. Certainly this would a lot safer than 7%,particularly if Steve,the OP,ensures that weight on the wheels of the car is at least 10% greater than the GTM (weight on van wheels).Could be an inexpensive solution to what threatened to be a costly problem.Let's hope so! Cheers

Removed the clutter.

Try the new numbers in the spreadsheet.  It looks like the GVM to GTM ratio is still exceeded, the maximum TBW that can be used is 310 KG as it will exceed Rear Axle weight if more and that's all with no luggage in the MUX.

How much power is required to tow a trailer is simply about how much of a hurry you are in.
Our OKA can weigh 6.5T and we sometimes tow a boat up to 2T. That is 8.5T total.
We have about 75kW of engine power.
I will give any of you a race up the Tanami or across the Gary Junction Road.

Cheers,
Peter