Big write up in today's 21/8/2018 Courier Mail about Towing vehicle changes in QLD
Mentioned on front Page , 8,9, 13,22
Proposed new laws will stop upgrades to popular vehicles
Transport Minister Mark Baily, despite repeated requests requests has not told peak industry bodies why the government is proceeding with the law.
Expect more roadside inspections from transport inspections from September 4th
A person was quoted in the article, as saying it was a money grab , as emergency vehicles are not included ....
However register vehicles from other states will be allowed ie NSW and Victorian drivers will be allowed to travel on QLD roads with out being subject to the laws
Warren-Pat_01 said
07:16 AM Aug 21, 2018
Nothing in Tnsv Bully, will get the CM. I might have to send a message to my local collie ( who is one of three blind mice, only doing what the Brisbane leaders say). How
Bill B said
07:22 AM Aug 21, 2018
I would assume that this relates to the rule changes re GCM upgrades that made the news a couple of months ago.
https://mr4x4.com.au/no-gcm-upgrades-new-vehicles/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=GCM+upgrades+have+been+banned&utm_campaign=PC+Newsletter+%23214
Sounds like the Courier Mail have sensationalized it to make it newsworthy.
-- Edited by Bill B on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 07:27:28 AM
Dave1952 said
08:08 AM Aug 21, 2018
As well, Transport Inspectors and Police around Gympie have been pulling caravans, horse floats and trailers over to check the type of shackles being used.
The National Towing Guide a few years ago (dont know if it is still in it, as when I last checked There was no reference to this area) recommended that the rating of shackle used should equal or exceed one and a half times the rated breakingstrain of the chain it is designed to hold. So if your chain is to hold one tonne, the shackle should be rated to hold one and a half tonnes.
I use two and a half tonne rated bow shackles for my vans and tandem trailer. As well, as with most of us, I cross the safety chains when fitting them up to my tow hitch. Failure to cross the chains will draw a fine and grounding of the vehicle and towed unit until rectified, as will incorrect or inadequate shackles.
When working in safety, I inspected a four tonne ATM trailer on one worksite and the only shackle being used (for two chains) was a single one tonne stainless steel shackle. That type of arrangement is clearly inadequate and anyone using inadequate shackles will draw unnecessary attention to all of us.
outlaw40 said
08:23 AM Aug 21, 2018
Come on Dave1952 please don't try to start the old facebook shackle story again,its been done to death and proved to be FAKE NEWS. as for original post regards vehicle upgrades thats been coming for a while but will not affect those vehicles that already have an upgrade just no more new ones.
the rocket said
09:02 AM Aug 21, 2018
Yep. gov. Found another way to collect taxes.
yobarr said
09:04 AM Aug 21, 2018
PeterX wrote:
Big write up in today's 21/8/2018 Courier Mail about Towing vehicle changes in QLD
Mentioned on front Page , 8,9, 13,22
Proposed new laws will stop upgrades to popular vehicles
Transport Minister Mark Baily, despite repeated requests requests has not told peak industry bodies why the government is proceeding with the law.
Expect more roadside inspections from transport inspections from September 4th
A person was quoted in the article, as saying it was a money grab , as emergency vehicles are not included ....
However register vehicles from other states will be allowed ie NSW and Victorian drivers will be allowed to travel on QLD roads with out being subject to the laws
Better late than never,Id say.This might prevent people trying to make their cars do things that they werent designed for. If you want to tow a bigger van,get a bigger car. Too many people are buying big vans,3500kg ATM,and trying to tow them with the common twin-cab utes because It can tow 3500kg. It cant if that towed vehicle is a caravan.Cheers
Read all the article, but in essence it is about "....Under the proposed new codes, to come into effect in two weeks, the towing capacity of 4WD vehicles will not be able to be upgraded after purchase."
However, this needs to be read in conjunction with the Minister's press release of this morning I posted above.
Read all the article, but in essence it is about "....Under the proposed new codes, to come into effect in two weeks, the towing capacity of 4WD vehicles will not be able to be upgraded after purchase."
However, this needs to be read in conjunction with the Minister's press release of this morning I posted above.
Cheers - John
Subscriber only access
rockylizard said
12:13 PM Aug 21, 2018
Gday...
Interestingly, my original source was not 'subscriber only' ...
This is the guts of the article -
"Queenslanders who need an increased carrying or towing capacity will be forced to buy large, powerful, expensive and fuel-inefficient imported utes and trucks.
The upgrades such as improved suspension and shock absorbers provide a more stable, safer ride and quicker stopping, while increasing towing capacity.
The weight of accessories such as water tanks, extended fuel tanks, bull bars and winches force many vehicles over their legal weight limit, which also makes upgrades necessary.
Vehicles operated in excess of their legal carrying capacity are declared unsafe and are not covered by insurance.
The ban will mean that many caravaners will be lucky to fit two people and a full load of fuel into their vehicles before they are over the legal towing limit.
Transport Minister Mark Bailey, despite repeated requests, has not told peak industry bodies why the Government is proceeding with the new laws.
The vehicles most affected include the most popular 4WDs on the market, including the Toyota LandCruiser, Toyota Hilux, Nissan Patrol, Ford Ranger, and Isuzu D Max."
I would still read this all in conjunction with the Minister's statement of this morning.
Cheers - John
the rocket said
12:38 PM Aug 21, 2018
Dave1952 wrote:
As well, Transport Inspectors and Police around Gympie have been pulling caravans, horse floats and trailers over to check the type of shackles being used.
The National Towing Guide a few years ago (dont know if it is still in it, as when I last checked There was no reference to this area) recommended that the rating of shackle used should equal or exceed one and a half times the rated breakingstrain of the chain it is designed to hold. So if your chain is to hold one tonne, the shackle should be rated to hold one and a half tonnes.
I use two and a half tonne rated bow shackles for my vans and tandem trailer. As well, as with most of us, I cross the safety chains when fitting them up to my tow hitch. Failure to cross the chains will draw a fine and grounding of the vehicle and towed unit until rectified, as will incorrect or inadequate shackles.
When working in safety, I inspected a four tonne ATM trailer on one worksite and the only shackle being used (for two chains) was a single one tonne stainless steel shackle. That type of arrangement is clearly inadequate and anyone using inadequate shackles will draw unnecessary attention to all of us.
Hi dave1952, do u get pulled over? And what date did this happen? Thanks. Rocket n strop
Eaglemax said
03:30 PM Aug 21, 2018
In my opinion with tugs with towing capacity of 3500kg does not equate to safe towing. The maximum imo shouldn't be the goal. Where's the buffer zone? I dont know what the state Govts intent is but it could be to force people to do just that.
Its understandable to want all the bells and whistles but a lot of very comfy vans can be had with 2000kg 2500kg or if you have to...3000kg...so why 3500?
Many of your common 4wd vehicles are overloaded with fuel, passengers, water, bullbar etc BEFORE they jook up the block of flats.
Tony
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 03:31:10 PM
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 03:33:21 PM
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 03:34:00 PM
Pamela G said
04:56 PM Aug 21, 2018
The Gcm upgrade for a 200 landcruiser could not be completed in Qld from early June this year with no prior notice to consumers or the companies selling them. Lovells and Kings. We were in the process of having it done to upgrade our towing capacity only to make sure we were legal. It has been a nightmare situation as we were having our van built to suit this upgrade. My question is why can you have it done pre registration. (Federal compliance) however if you wait one day after registration you can not have it done (state legislation) Do we all live in the same country. Sometimes I really wonder
As a post script.
If you have the 4t towing upgrade done in any other state than qld your Gcm for a 200 lc will be on a new compliance plate showing 7800.
If you have it done in Qld it can not be greater than the vehicle manufacturers stated Gcm
SouthernComfort said
05:50 PM Aug 21, 2018
I'm not in Qld, so my thoughts on this are general...
Fact is, I can't get my head around GCM upgrades - it may make some rigs legal, but how does a new plate make them safer??
As it is, if towing a van weighing 3500kg ATM, few (if any) 3500kg tow rated cars could be balanced well enough to be stable and practical in my opinion. Therefore a car's practical ability to 'tow' that weight has always been something of a furphy. All that the manufacturer's towing capacity means is - this is how much the car is capable of hauling without it ripping apart, and I reckon that's where it ends.
My stock Grand Cherokee diesel with a GVM of 2949kg is rated to tow 3500kg. Yet, if I maxed out the car and towed such a weight, that means the car would still be be 16% lighter than the van. There would be no need to do any other calculations for payload and ball weight etc. as far as I'm concerned - yes the car would pull it all easily, but for safe handling I would simply never drive a rig with that car-to-van weighting ratio. In fact I wouldn't consider pulling a van greater than about 2650kg ATM.
Everything taken into account, my actual GVM runs 25% heavier than my van's actual ATM of 2050kg. If I desperately needed it I'm left with generous payload buffers.
I wonder how many of the accident claims cited by CIL (as quoted in another recent thread), involve rigs with such poor car-to-van weight ratios? Perhaps that would be more informative than quoting the average age of accident claimants!!
Dave1952 said
06:56 PM Aug 21, 2018
Outlaw40 wrote:
Come on Dave1952 please don't try to start the old facebook shackle story again,its been done to death and proved to be FAKE NEWS. as for original post regards vehicle upgrades thats been coming for a while but will not affect those vehicles that already have an upgrade just no more new ones. __________________________________________________________________________________________________
Outlaw40, my info came from the Sunshine Coast Daily. As well, I had a vested interest in ensuring that all towed units entering or leaving any worksites under my control were correctly restrained when I worked in safety. As well, it is merely good sense to ensure that the shackles you are using exceed the breaking strain of the chain they are supposed to hold, not to mention legal compliance. Insofar as "fake news", I suggest you try to use unrated or inadequate shackles and see how far you get if you do get pulled over or if you have a ding and your insurance company gets wind of the shackle size if the shackles are found to be a contributor to the crash.
I come from a law enforcement background, so am not simply trying to start up "fake news." My purpose was simply to let all out there know that there are (or were) guidelines to assist us in the choice and fitment of appropriate shackles for our vans. If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself.
-- Edited by Dave1952 on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 06:56:48 PM
Safety chain(s) must be suitably and appropriately connected to a tow bar. The use of a shackle is permitted, provided the shackle used is fit for the purpose and compatible with the safety chain in terms of strength and size.
It is the responsibility of the vehicle owner/operator to ensure that a shackle, if used to attach safety chain to tow bar, is fit for the purpose and compatible with the safety chain. This can be demonstrated in a couple of ways:
1. Use of a shackle that is compatible with the safety chain AND complies with AS 2741-2002 Shackles. In this case the shackle will have appropriate markings.
Safe Towing All about safe towing - 5 -
Safety chains
All pig trailers with rigid drawbars (with or without breakaway brakes but excluding converter dollies) and, any other trailer without breakaway brakes, must be fitted with safety chains that are marked in accordance with the relevant Australian Standard complying with the following:
trailers that do not exceed 2500 kg ATM must have at least one safety chain complying with Australian Standard AS 4177.4-1994 or Australian Standard AS 4177.4-2004 'Caravan and light trailer towing components Part 4: Safety chains up to 3500kg capacity', or be a safety cable with a certified load capacity of the same
trailers over 2.5 tonnes and not exceeding 3.5 tonnes ATM must have two safety chains of designation of 3500 kg complying with Australian Standard AS 4177.4-1994 or Australian Standard AS 4177.42004
trailers over 3500 kg ATM must have two safety chains made from steel of a minimum 800 MPa breaking stress that conforms to the mechanical properties of Grade T chain as specified in Australian Standard AS 2321-1979 'Short Link Chain for Lifting Purposes (uncalibrated)' or Australian Standard AS 2321-2006 'Short Link Chain for Lifting Purposes.' Each chain must be sized such that the minimum breaking load exceeds the ATM.
The length of the safety chain/s must prevent the trailers drawbar hitting the ground if the trailer is detached from the towing vehicle. The safety chains must be properly connected to the tow bar with attachments capable of withstanding the specified breaking load of each chain. Do not use padlocks.
For further information regarding couplings, brake requirements and safety chains please refer to the Vehicle Standard Bulletin - Building Small Trailers (VSB1) available on the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development website (www.infrastructure.gov.au)
Safety Chain Connections to Tow Bar
Safety chain(s) must be suitably and appropriately connected to a tow bar. The use of a shackle is permitted, provided the shackle used is fit for the purpose and compatible with the safety chain in terms of strength and size.
It is the responsibility of the vehicle owner/operator to ensure that a shackle, if used to attach safety chain to tow bar, is fit for the purpose and compatible with the safety chain. This can be demonstrated in a couple of ways:
1. Use of a shackle that is compatible with the safety chain AND complies with AS 2741-2002 Shackles. In this case the shackle will have appropriate markings.
2. Alternatively, the use of a shackle that is compatible with the safety chain AND is of a reputable brand. In this case, the shackle will have appropriate markings to show the brand and/or part identification sufficient to trace its brand and strength.
"False News" - I don't think so!!!!!
rockylizard said
07:32 PM Aug 21, 2018
Gday...
Dave, I put this up in the other post on this topic ... but in case you, and others, miss it -
Gday...
I understand what you are saying Dave. However, there was NEVER any bookings of drivers for having trailers/vans/horse floats etc connected and for not using rated shackles.
The standard actually states that the shackle needs to have markings that demonstrate it has the same 'rating' as the chains used on the van.
Let's look at other sources -
"Although there do not appear to be any specific requirements for shackles, the CIAA recommends shackles meeting the AS 2741-2002 standard be used to secure rated safety chains up to 3500kg capacity. In addition, they recommend that shackles should also have the following characteristics:
The shackle grade is S or 6.
The working load limit is 1000kg.
The shackle diameter is 10mm.
Either a bow or D shackle may be used.
So there you have it. Although there arent any specific requirements for the use of a rated D shackle when towing your trailer, boat or caravan, its still advisable to adhere to guidelines. After all, you want to make sure the components are up to the task."
"While there is an Australian Standard relating to shackles (AS 2741-2002), it only relates to the use of shackles for lifting purposes, such as lifting an engine into a car bay, not for towing. "Our understanding is that there is currently no regulation requiring shackles used on trailer safety chains to comply with the Australian Standard," the CIAV reported."
"Rumors about specific requirements for D-Shackles being enforced by police have been circulating around the country. These rumors claim police were issuing infringement notices for non-load rated D-Shackles used to tow caravan, boats and trailers. This information has spread throughout caravan parks and camping grounds and is now coming to the attention of dealers, manufacturers and state associations. Research by the Caravan Industry of Australia Technical Team shows police and state departments have denied these rumors, and advised that there is no specific requirement for D-Shackles."
I posted a reply in the other thread. I note that none of your posted links are from government sources. Although the Police may not have actually booked anyone, I have no doubt that there would have been some stern warnings issued had anyone been found with inadequate shackles. As well, you may note that my previous comment was a direct reference to DTMR, and I doubt very much if they would get things so wrong that they would refer to a standard for lifting chains and devices, rather than towing and safety chains. Those guides are checked and rechecked for accuracy, because otherwise, they can be liable for civil lawsuits if their information is proven to be incorrect.
Regards
Dave
Greg 1 said
08:27 PM Aug 21, 2018
I believe that there are no ADR's for rated shackles being required and as such any requirements would be purely state based legislation that could probably be challenged.
I think the original article is a typical media beat up with only a headline to start a sensation and no real basis in fact.
yobarr said
09:05 AM Aug 23, 2018
SouthernComfort wrote......My stock Grand Cherokee diesel with a GVM of 2949kg is rated to tow 3500kg. Yet, if I maxed out the car and towed such a weight, that means the car would still be be 16% lighter than the van. There would be no need to do any other calculations for payload and ball weight etc. as far as I'm concerned .
Everything taken into account, my actual GVM runs 25% heavier than my van's actual ATM of 2050kg.
Hi Tony....Just so that others are not confused,I point out that your figures are wrongly calculated.If you hook a 3500kg ATM van to your car,assuming 10% towball weight,you have transferred 350kg of your ATM to the car,leaving 3150kg GTM.(Weight on vans wheels).Assuming that your car is at its max GVM of 2949kg,which INCLUDES 350kg towball weight,you now have a car that is 7% lighter than the van. Still super-unsafe,but not as bad as suggested. For safety,the cars GVM should be at least 10% more than the vans GTM. My car is set up to tow 3500kg,all legal,with the car being 15% heavier than the van,and right on my GCM of 6800kg.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers.
Radar said
02:39 PM Aug 23, 2018
yobarr wrote:
SouthernComfort wrote......My stock Grand Cherokee diesel with a GVM of 2949kg is rated to tow 3500kg. Yet, if I maxed out the car and towed such a weight, that means the car would still be be 16% lighter than the van. There would be no need to do any other calculations for payload and ball weight etc. as far as I'm concerned .
Everything taken into account, my actual GVM runs 25% heavier than my van's actual ATM of 2050kg.
"Hi Tony....Just so that others are not confused,I point out that your figures are wrongly calculated.If you hook a 3500kg ATM van to your car,assuming 10% towball weight,you have transferred 350kg of your ATM to the car,leaving 3150kg GTM.(Weight on vans wheels).Assuming that your car is at its max GVM of 2949kg,which INCLUDES 350kg towball weight,you now have a car that is 7% lighter than the van. Still super-unsafe,but not as bad as suggested".
A few kilos either way is not going to be super unsafe only in your eyes
"For safety,the cars GVM should be at least 10% more than the vans GTM. My car is set up to tow 3500kg,all legal,with the car being 15% heavier than the van,and right on my GCM of 6800kg.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers."
I think sometimes this 10% rule is an old wivies tale from the past. My example is this, a truck and quad axle dog trailer grossing approx 51tonnes, truck opprox 21 tonnes tows quad axle dog trailer opprox 30 tonnes, a good 30% more weight then the towing vehicle.
Our set up has weighed in at 5500kgs. Car 2900 caravan 2600 tow ball 270
yobarr said
03:36 PM Aug 23, 2018
Radar wrote:
I think sometimes this 10% rule is an old wivies tale from the past. My example is this, a truck and quad axle dog trailer grossing approx 51tonnes, truck opprox 21 tonnes tows quad axle dog trailer opprox 30 tonnes, a good 30% more weight then the towing vehicle.
Surely you jest? There us absolutely NO WAY that you can compare the towing characteristics of a dog trailer with those of a pig trailer......you MUST be joking! With an overloaded pig trailer it is very easy to get a scenario where the tail is wagging the dog,but this is never the case with a dog trailer.I will end here,because if you are not joking then it is clear you have a serious lack of knowledge on the topic of weights.Take care.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers
Radar said
05:19 PM Aug 23, 2018
yobarr wrote:
Radar wrote:
I think sometimes this 10% rule is an old wivies tale from the past. My example is this, a truck and quad axle dog trailer grossing approx 51tonnes, truck opprox 21 tonnes tows quad axle dog trailer opprox 30 tonnes, a good 30% more weight then the towing vehicle.
Surely you jest? There us absolutely NO WAY that you can compare the towing characteristics of a dog trailer with those of a pig trailer......you MUST be joking! With an overloaded pig trailer it is very easy to get a scenario where the tail is wagging the dog,but this is never the case with a dog trailer.I will end here,because if you are not joking then it is clear you have a serious lack of knowledge on the topic of weights.Take care.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers
After 43 years as transport driver, throw in a couple of years as the weighbridge attendant, I probably know enough about weights and measures then most motorist could ever know but have no knowledge of the science of things.
On the road you often see a empty tipper towing a 2 or 3 axle pig style trailer carrying a large machinery, truck weighing 9tonne trailer could be grossing 22 tonnes.
yobarr said
05:34 PM Aug 23, 2018
Radar wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Radar wrote:
I think sometimes this 10% rule is an old wivies tale from the past. My example is this, a truck and quad axle dog trailer grossing approx 51tonnes, truck opprox 21 tonnes tows quad axle dog trailer opprox 30 tonnes, a good 30% more weight then the towing vehicle.
Surely you jest? There us absolutely NO WAY that you can compare the towing characteristics of a dog trailer with those of a pig trailer......you MUST be joking! With an overloaded pig trailer it is very easy to get a scenario where the tail is wagging the dog,but this is never the case with a dog trailer.I will end here,because if you are not joking then it is clear you have a serious lack of knowledge on the topic of weights.Take care.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers
After 43 years as transport driver, throw in a couple of years as the weighbridge attendant, I probably know enough about weights and measures then most motorist could ever know but have no knowledge of the science of things.
On the road you often see a empty tipper towing a 2 or 3 axle pig style trailer carrying a large machinery, truck weighing 9tonne trailer could be grossing 22 tonnes.
If you do actually know the law you will be aware that if a trucks GVM is over 4500kg,that truck must not tow a pig trailer that weighs more than the truck.If you see empty tippers,usually about 10 tonne,then the trailer that they tow must not weigh more than the truck.If the trailer weighs more,the truck needs to have weight in its body to increase weight.
SouthernComfort said
05:53 PM Aug 23, 2018
yobarr wrote:
SouthernComfort wrote......My stock Grand Cherokee diesel with a GVM of 2949kg is rated to tow 3500kg. Yet, if I maxed out the car and towed such a weight, that means the car would still be be 16% lighter than the van. There would be no need to do any other calculations for payload and ball weight etc. as far as I'm concerned .
Everything taken into account, my actual GVM runs 25% heavier than my van's actual ATM of 2050kg.
Hi Tony....Just so that others are not confused,I point out that your figures are wrongly calculated.If you hook a 3500kg ATM van to your car,assuming 10% towball weight,you have transferred 350kg of your ATM to the car,leaving 3150kg GTM.(Weight on vans wheels).Assuming that your car is at its max GVM of 2949kg,which INCLUDES 350kg towball weight,you now have a car that is 7% lighter than the van. Still super-unsafe,but not as bad as suggested. For safety,the cars GVM should be at least 10% more than the vans GTM. My car is set up to tow 3500kg,all legal,with the car being 15% heavier than the van,and right on my GCM of 6800kg.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers.
Yeah, late in the afternoon! I just hammer the point about the car-to-weight ratio being very wrong with a 3500kg van on the back of typical SUV's & utes.
SouthernComfort said
06:16 PM Aug 23, 2018
Radar wrote:
yobarr wrote:
SouthernComfort wrote......My stock Grand Cherokee diesel with a GVM of 2949kg is rated to tow 3500kg. Yet, if I maxed out the car and towed such a weight, that means the car would still be be 16% lighter than the van. There would be no need to do any other calculations for payload and ball weight etc. as far as I'm concerned .
Everything taken into account, my actual GVM runs 25% heavier than my van's actual ATM of 2050kg.
"Hi Tony....Just so that others are not confused,I point out that your figures are wrongly calculated.If you hook a 3500kg ATM van to your car,assuming 10% towball weight,you have transferred 350kg of your ATM to the car,leaving 3150kg GTM.(Weight on vans wheels).Assuming that your car is at its max GVM of 2949kg,which INCLUDES 350kg towball weight,you now have a car that is 7% lighter than the van. Still super-unsafe,but not as bad as suggested".
A few kilos either way is not going to be super unsafe only in your eyes
"For safety,the cars GVM should be at least 10% more than the vans GTM. My car is set up to tow 3500kg,all legal,with the car being 15% heavier than the van,and right on my GCM of 6800kg.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers."
I think sometimes this 10% rule is an old wivies tale from the past. My example is this, a truck and quad axle dog trailer grossing approx 51tonnes, truck opprox 21 tonnes tows quad axle dog trailer opprox 30 tonnes, a good 30% more weight then the towing vehicle.
Our set up has weighed in at 5500kgs. Car 2900 caravan 2600 tow ball 270
Er, I think there's a very good reason a dog trailer has at least 2 axles near the extremities of the chassis and a wheel in each corner! No way can the dynamics (handling characteristics or weight ratios) be compared with a pig set-up such as a caravan.
yobarr said
08:13 PM Aug 23, 2018
SouthernComfort wrote:
yobarr wrote:
SouthernComfort wrote......My stock Grand Cherokee diesel with a GVM of 2949kg is rated to tow 3500kg. Yet, if I maxed out the car and towed such a weight, that means the car would still be be 16% lighter than the van. There would be no need to do any other calculations for payload and ball weight etc. as far as I'm concerned .
Everything taken into account, my actual GVM runs 25% heavier than my van's actual ATM of 2050kg.
Hi Tony....Just so that others are not confused,I point out that your figures are wrongly calculated.If you hook a 3500kg ATM van to your car,assuming 10% towball weight,you have transferred 350kg of your ATM to the car,leaving 3150kg GTM.(Weight on vans wheels).Assuming that your car is at its max GVM of 2949kg,which INCLUDES 350kg towball weight,you now have a car that is 7% lighter than the van. Still super-unsafe,but not as bad as suggested. For safety,the cars GVM should be at least 10% more than the vans GTM. My car is set up to tow 3500kg,all legal,with the car being 15% heavier than the van,and right on my GCM of 6800kg.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers.
Yeah, late in the afternoon! I just hammer the point about the car-to-weight ratio being very wrong with a 3500kg van on the back of typical SUV's & utes.
Hi Tony...I agree 100% with your comment that there is NO WAY that you can safely tow a 3500kg van behind the popular group of twin-cab utes,but the Head in the sand brigade will waffle-on about doing xxxxxxKM with No problems. Such an achievement is a result more of good luck than of good management.Just saying.Cheers
Big write up in today's 21/8/2018 Courier Mail about Towing vehicle changes in QLD
Mentioned on front Page , 8,9, 13,22
Proposed new laws will stop upgrades to popular vehicles
Transport Minister Mark Baily, despite repeated requests requests has not told peak industry bodies why the government is proceeding with the law.
Expect more roadside inspections from transport inspections from September 4th
A person was quoted in the article, as saying it was a money grab , as emergency vehicles are not included ....
However register vehicles from other states will be allowed ie NSW and Victorian drivers will be allowed to travel on QLD roads with out being subject to the laws
https://mr4x4.com.au/no-gcm-upgrades-new-vehicles/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=GCM+upgrades+have+been+banned&utm_campaign=PC+Newsletter+%23214 Sounds like the Courier Mail have sensationalized it to make it newsworthy.
-- Edited by Bill B on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 07:27:28 AM
The National Towing Guide a few years ago (dont know if it is still in it, as when I last checked There was no reference to this area) recommended that the rating of shackle used should equal or exceed one and a half times the rated breakingstrain of the chain it is designed to hold. So if your chain is to hold one tonne, the shackle should be rated to hold one and a half tonnes.
I use two and a half tonne rated bow shackles for my vans and tandem trailer. As well, as with most of us, I cross the safety chains when fitting them up to my tow hitch. Failure to cross the chains will draw a fine and grounding of the vehicle and towed unit until rectified, as will incorrect or inadequate shackles.
When working in safety, I inspected a four tonne ATM trailer on one worksite and the only shackle being used (for two chains) was a single one tonne stainless steel shackle. That type of arrangement is clearly inadequate and anyone using inadequate shackles will draw unnecessary attention to all of us.
Yep. gov. Found another way to collect taxes.
Better late than never,Id say.This might prevent people trying to make their cars do things that they werent designed for. If you want to tow a bigger van,get a bigger car. Too many people are buying big vans,3500kg ATM,and trying to tow them with the common twin-cab utes because It can tow 3500kg. It cant if that towed vehicle is a caravan.Cheers
Gday...
I have just come across this - http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2018/8/21/statement-on-the-use-of-trailers-in-queensland
So ... was the Courier Mail (and other) articles misinformation or just more fake news from twitter?
Cheers - John
Gday...
This is from the Cairns Post -
https://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/queensland/4wd-towing-laws-to-be-toughened-by-qld-government/news-story/a25471424f842886591e1f3e6ef4834b
Read all the article, but in essence it is about "....Under the proposed new codes, to come into effect in two weeks, the towing capacity of 4WD vehicles will not be able to be upgraded after purchase."
However, this needs to be read in conjunction with the Minister's press release of this morning I posted above.
Cheers - John
Subscriber only access
Gday...
Interestingly, my original source was not 'subscriber only' ...
This is the guts of the article -
"Queenslanders who need an increased carrying or towing capacity will be forced to buy large, powerful, expensive and fuel-inefficient imported utes and trucks.
The upgrades such as improved suspension and shock absorbers provide a more stable, safer ride and quicker stopping, while increasing towing capacity.
The weight of accessories such as water tanks, extended fuel tanks, bull bars and winches force many vehicles over their legal weight limit, which also makes upgrades necessary.
Vehicles operated in excess of their legal carrying capacity are declared unsafe and are not covered by insurance.
The ban will mean that many caravaners will be lucky to fit two people and a full load of fuel into their vehicles before they are over the legal towing limit.
Transport Minister Mark Bailey, despite repeated requests, has not told peak industry bodies why the Government is proceeding with the new laws.
The vehicles most affected include the most popular 4WDs on the market, including the Toyota LandCruiser, Toyota Hilux, Nissan Patrol, Ford Ranger, and Isuzu D Max."
I would still read this all in conjunction with the Minister's statement of this morning.
Cheers - John
Hi dave1952, do u get pulled over? And what date did this happen? Thanks. Rocket n strop
In my opinion with tugs with towing capacity of 3500kg does not equate to safe towing. The maximum imo shouldn't be the goal. Where's the buffer zone?
I dont know what the state Govts intent is but it could be to force people to do just that.
Its understandable to want all the bells and whistles but a lot of very comfy vans can be had with 2000kg 2500kg or if you have to...3000kg...so why 3500?
Many of your common 4wd vehicles are overloaded with fuel, passengers, water, bullbar etc BEFORE they jook up the block of flats.
Tony
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 03:31:10 PM
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 03:33:21 PM
-- Edited by Eaglemax on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 03:34:00 PM
Fact is, I can't get my head around GCM upgrades - it may make some rigs legal, but how does a new plate make them safer??
As it is, if towing a van weighing 3500kg ATM, few (if any) 3500kg tow rated cars could be balanced well enough to be stable and practical in my opinion. Therefore a car's practical ability to 'tow' that weight has always been something of a furphy. All that the manufacturer's towing capacity means is - this is how much the car is capable of hauling without it ripping apart, and I reckon that's where it ends.
My stock Grand Cherokee diesel with a GVM of 2949kg is rated to tow 3500kg. Yet, if I maxed out the car and towed such a weight, that means the car would still be be 16% lighter than the van. There would be no need to do any other calculations for payload and ball weight etc. as far as I'm concerned - yes the car would pull it all easily, but for safe handling I would simply never drive a rig with that car-to-van weighting ratio. In fact I wouldn't consider pulling a van greater than about 2650kg ATM.
Everything taken into account, my actual GVM runs 25% heavier than my van's actual ATM of 2050kg. If I desperately needed it I'm left with generous payload buffers.
I wonder how many of the accident claims cited by CIL (as quoted in another recent thread), involve rigs with such poor car-to-van weight ratios? Perhaps that would be more informative than quoting the average age of accident claimants!!
Outlaw40 wrote:
Come on Dave1952 please don't try to start the old facebook shackle story again,its been done to death and proved to be FAKE NEWS. as for original post regards vehicle upgrades thats been coming for a while but will not affect those vehicles that already have an upgrade just no more new ones.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Outlaw40, my info came from the Sunshine Coast Daily. As well, I had a vested interest in ensuring that all towed units entering or leaving any worksites under my control were correctly restrained when I worked in safety. As well, it is merely good sense to ensure that the shackles you are using exceed the breaking strain of the chain they are supposed to hold, not to mention legal compliance. Insofar as "fake news", I suggest you try to use unrated or inadequate shackles and see how far you get if you do get pulled over or if you have a ding and your insurance company gets wind of the shackle size if the shackles are found to be a contributor to the crash.
I come from a law enforcement background, so am not simply trying to start up "fake news." My purpose was simply to let all out there know that there are (or were) guidelines to assist us in the choice and fitment of appropriate shackles for our vans. If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself.
-- Edited by Dave1952 on Tuesday 21st of August 2018 06:56:48 PM
Safety chain(s) must be suitably and appropriately connected to a tow bar. The use of a shackle is permitted, provided the shackle used is fit for the purpose and compatible with the safety chain in terms of strength and size.
It is the responsibility of the vehicle owner/operator to ensure that a shackle, if used to attach safety chain to tow bar, is fit for the purpose and compatible with the safety chain. This can be demonstrated in a couple of ways:
1. Use of a shackle that is compatible with the safety chain AND complies with AS 2741-2002 Shackles. In this case the shackle will have appropriate markings.
Safe Towing All about safe towing - 5 -
Safety chains
All pig trailers with rigid drawbars (with or without breakaway brakes but excluding converter dollies) and, any other trailer without breakaway brakes, must be fitted with safety chains that are marked in accordance with the relevant Australian Standard complying with the following:
trailers that do not exceed 2500 kg ATM must have at least one safety chain complying with Australian Standard AS 4177.4-1994 or Australian Standard AS 4177.4-2004 'Caravan and light trailer towing components Part 4: Safety chains up to 3500kg capacity', or be a safety cable with a certified load capacity of the same
trailers over 2.5 tonnes and not exceeding 3.5 tonnes ATM must have two safety chains of designation of 3500 kg complying with Australian Standard AS 4177.4-1994 or Australian Standard AS 4177.42004
trailers over 3500 kg ATM must have two safety chains made from steel of a minimum 800 MPa breaking stress that conforms to the mechanical properties of Grade T chain as specified in Australian Standard AS 2321-1979 'Short Link Chain for Lifting Purposes (uncalibrated)' or Australian Standard AS 2321-2006 'Short Link Chain for Lifting Purposes.' Each chain must be sized such that the minimum breaking load exceeds the ATM.
The length of the safety chain/s must prevent the trailers drawbar hitting the ground if the trailer is detached from the towing vehicle. The safety chains must be properly connected to the tow bar with attachments capable of withstanding the specified breaking load of each chain. Do not use padlocks.
For further information regarding couplings, brake requirements and safety chains please refer to the Vehicle Standard Bulletin - Building Small Trailers (VSB1) available on the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development website (www.infrastructure.gov.au)
Safety Chain Connections to Tow Bar
Safety chain(s) must be suitably and appropriately connected to a tow bar. The use of a shackle is permitted, provided the shackle used is fit for the purpose and compatible with the safety chain in terms of strength and size.
It is the responsibility of the vehicle owner/operator to ensure that a shackle, if used to attach safety chain to tow bar, is fit for the purpose and compatible with the safety chain. This can be demonstrated in a couple of ways:
1. Use of a shackle that is compatible with the safety chain AND complies with AS 2741-2002 Shackles. In this case the shackle will have appropriate markings.
2. Alternatively, the use of a shackle that is compatible with the safety chain AND is of a reputable brand. In this case, the shackle will have appropriate markings to show the brand and/or part identification sufficient to trace its brand and strength.
"False News" - I don't think so!!!!!
Gday...
Dave, I put this up in the other post on this topic ... but in case you, and others, miss it -
Gday...
I understand what you are saying Dave. However, there was NEVER any bookings of drivers for having trailers/vans/horse floats etc connected and for not using rated shackles.
The standard actually states that the shackle needs to have markings that demonstrate it has the same 'rating' as the chains used on the van.
Let's look at other sources -
"Although there do not appear to be any specific requirements for shackles, the CIAA recommends shackles meeting the AS 2741-2002 standard be used to secure rated safety chains up to 3500kg capacity. In addition, they recommend that shackles should also have the following characteristics:
So there you have it. Although there arent any specific requirements for the use of a rated D shackle when towing your trailer, boat or caravan, its still advisable to adhere to guidelines. After all, you want to make sure the components are up to the task."
http://www.withoutahitch.com.au/trailer/rated-d-shackle-requirements/
"While there is an Australian Standard relating to shackles (AS 2741-2002), it only relates to the use of shackles for lifting purposes, such as lifting an engine into a car bay, not for towing.
"Our understanding is that there is currently no regulation requiring shackles used on trailer safety chains to comply with the Australian Standard," the CIAV reported."
https://www.caravanworld.com.au/news/1605/rated-shackles-not-legally-required-for-towing
"Rumors about specific requirements for D-Shackles being enforced by police have been circulating around the country. These rumors claim police were issuing infringement notices for non-load rated D-Shackles used to tow caravan, boats and trailers.
This information has spread throughout caravan parks and camping grounds and is now coming to the attention of dealers, manufacturers and state associations.
Research by the Caravan Industry of Australia Technical Team shows police and state departments have denied these rumors, and advised that there is no specific requirement for D-Shackles."
https://www.goseeaustralia.com.au/blog/d-shackle-confusion-resolved-by-rvmap-industry-recommendation-says-tech-alert
I could go on and on and on Dave
Cheers - John
I posted a reply in the other thread. I note that none of your posted links are from government sources. Although the Police may not have actually booked anyone, I have no doubt that there would have been some stern warnings issued had anyone been found with inadequate shackles. As well, you may note that my previous comment was a direct reference to DTMR, and I doubt very much if they would get things so wrong that they would refer to a standard for lifting chains and devices, rather than towing and safety chains. Those guides are checked and rechecked for accuracy, because otherwise, they can be liable for civil lawsuits if their information is proven to be incorrect.
Regards
Dave
Hi Tony....Just so that others are not confused,I point out that your figures are wrongly calculated.If you hook a 3500kg ATM van to your car,assuming 10% towball weight,you have transferred 350kg of your ATM to the car,leaving 3150kg GTM.(Weight on vans wheels).Assuming that your car is at its max GVM of 2949kg,which INCLUDES 350kg towball weight,you now have a car that is 7% lighter than the van. Still super-unsafe,but not as bad as suggested. For safety,the cars GVM should be at least 10% more than the vans GTM. My car is set up to tow 3500kg,all legal,with the car being 15% heavier than the van,and right on my GCM of 6800kg.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers.
Our set up has weighed in at 5500kgs. Car 2900 caravan 2600 tow ball 270
Surely you jest? There us absolutely NO WAY that you can compare the towing characteristics of a dog trailer with those of a pig trailer......you MUST be joking! With an overloaded pig trailer it is very easy to get a scenario where the tail is wagging the dog,but this is never the case with a dog trailer.I will end here,because if you are not joking then it is clear you have a serious lack of knowledge on the topic of weights.Take care.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers
After 43 years as transport driver, throw in a couple of years as the weighbridge attendant, I probably know enough about weights and measures then most motorist could ever know but have no knowledge of the science of things.
On the road you often see a empty tipper towing a 2 or 3 axle pig style trailer carrying a large machinery, truck weighing 9tonne trailer could be grossing 22 tonnes.
If you do actually know the law you will be aware that if a trucks GVM is over 4500kg,that truck must not tow a pig trailer that weighs more than the truck.If you see empty tippers,usually about 10 tonne,then the trailer that they tow must not weigh more than the truck.If the trailer weighs more,the truck needs to have weight in its body to increase weight.
Yeah, late in the afternoon! I just hammer the point about the car-to-weight ratio being very wrong with a 3500kg van on the back of typical SUV's & utes.
Er, I think there's a very good reason a dog trailer has at least 2 axles near the extremities of the chassis and a wheel in each corner! No way can the dynamics (handling characteristics or weight ratios) be compared with a pig set-up such as a caravan.
Hi Tony...I agree 100% with your comment that there is NO WAY that you can safely tow a 3500kg van behind the popular group of twin-cab utes,but the Head in the sand brigade will waffle-on about doing xxxxxxKM with No problems. Such an achievement is a result more of good luck than of good management.Just saying.Cheers