For those who take the time to read it, the very last sentence says it all.
outlaw40 said
03:18 PM May 26, 2018
Just another payed infomercial. Count how many times they say pedders in the article
STRETCH ARMSTRONG said
04:56 PM May 26, 2018
Its advertising as outlaw40 said, but the topic is true and a serious problem. I thought it was good info and worth the read.
dabbler said
05:00 PM May 26, 2018
To be fair, Pedders are one of the few places that offer a Towing and Load report. The other outlets named just sell the stuff and don't really offer all round advice. The article has relevance to a lot of us here.
Santa said
05:41 PM May 26, 2018
"Police and road regulators are also starting to target heavily-laden caravans being towed by one-tonne utes and SUVs which are not suitable, or outside their safe operating range, for the job."
About time.
Desert Dweller said
07:20 PM May 26, 2018
Santa wrote:
"Police and road regulators are also starting to target heavily-laden caravans being towed by one-tonne utes and SUVs which are not suitable, or outside their safe operating range, for the job."
About time.
Canopy, bull bar, spotlights, roof rack, tinny, beer fridge, tool kit, they all reduce the allowable weight that a utility can legally tow.
Caravan has full water tanks, extra batteries/solar panels, bicycles, extra jerry cans, outboard motor, generator & fuel.
A perfect recipe for off road driving, OFF ROAD into a ditch, one incident per day.
outlaw40 said
10:42 AM May 27, 2018
Really getting tired of the beatup the dual cab on this and other forums( mostly by the landcruiser brigade) maybe toyota have added a blackhole option extra that makes the weight vanish, contrary to popular belief most dual cab owner are able to add up.
outlaw40 said
10:59 AM May 27, 2018
Also got to wonder about the idea that any particular vehicle is unsafe to tow x weight but go to pedder or someone else pay them 3 grand or there abouts for some springs and shocks and a lovely blue plate and its magically transformed.the tow rating on any vehicle is worked out with a lot of other parameters in mind
Dickodownunder said
11:32 AM May 27, 2018
outlaw40 wrote:
Also got to wonder about the idea that any particular vehicle is unsafe to tow x weight but go to pedder or someone else pay them 3 grand or there abouts for some springs and shocks and a lovely blue plate and its magically transformed.the tow rating on any vehicle is worked out with a lot of other parameters in mind
As you say it may not be only the dual cab 1 tonne utes that may have a problem but the sales hype is the problem as many owners really do believe that their combination is legal.
The last two sentences from the article linked says it all.
-- Edited by Dickodownunder on Sunday 27th of May 2018 11:32:51 AM
-- Edited by Dickodownunder on Sunday 27th of May 2018 11:33:40 AM
Really getting tired of the beatup the dual cab on this and other forums( mostly by the landcruiser brigade) maybe toyota have added a blackhole option extra that makes the weight vanish, contrary to popular belief most dual cab owner are able to add up.
Yep, utes have potential for more 'available' payload and that shows there. Those tables are not perfect, but give some idea of just how difficult it is to stay within GVM.
As Desert Dweller said earlier - "Canopy, bull bar, spotlights, roof rack, tinny, beer fridge, tool kit, they all reduce the allowable weight that a utility (or any vehicle) can legally tow. Caravan has full water tanks, extra batteries/solar panels, bicycles, extra jerry cans, outboard motor, generator & fuel."
Dicko says it well too - "..........sales hype is the problem as many owners really do believe that their combination is legal."
As well, you are correct in your statement - ".........pay them 3 grand or thereabouts for some springs and shocks and a lovely blue plate and its magically transformed. The tow rating on any vehicle is worked out with a lot of other parameters in mind."
Unfortunately, there is very little informed education being done. Someone needs to tell, no INSIST -
the manufacturers to completely review their sales brochures where they state the apparent capabilities of their vehicles;
sales people to actually know the vehicles/vans they sell - and the potential use the vehicle will be subjected to. Not everyone uses the vehicle/van the same way;
buyers give due diligence in their research on just what they will actually, and honestly, expect and do with the vehicle;
van manufacturers to completely review their sales brochures and compliance plates where they state the supposed 'ratings' for EACH van.
Perhaps only then will poor 'Joe Public" have a better chance than a snowball in hell in getting a vehicle and van that will genuinely make for a safe, legal combination.
It isn't all the fault of the manufacturers, because people are seeing how so many are towing that big 22ft van with a Landcruiser/Ranger/BT-50/Prado etc etc loaded to the hilt AND a tinny on the roof. GEEZ, if they can do that - it must be OK. Sadly, if you ask those who have their vehicles loaded to the hilt if they are overweight they either tell you to F**K orf or have no idea what the vehicle's GVM is and what their vehicle actually weighs.
Unfortunately, I don't think things will change until the "authorities" get those scales out and begin doing to vehicles/vans what they do to trucks. Only then when the owners of vehicles that have been mislead suffer inconvenience and financial distress and lodge the complaints may there be some change.
Cheers - John
outlaw40 said
01:19 PM May 27, 2018
Agree with you rocklizzard to an extent. The only exception to your view is that no matter what the sales hype it still rests squarely on the shoulders of the driver to ensure everything is in order no matter what the salesman says and secondly i just dont get the obsession with dual cabs i would suspect their would be as many or more prados, 200s ,jeeps, territorys and the like that potentially have a problem .going against the grain though i just dont believe and have seen no actual evidence on the problem being as large as some possibly with vested interests ( insert pedders lovell etc ) would have us believe .
rockylizard said
06:04 PM May 27, 2018
outlaw40 wrote:
SNIP~~~ no matter what the sales hype it still rests squarely on the shoulders of the driver to ensure everything is in order no matter what the salesman says ~~~SNIP
Gday...
Again you speak truth Outlaw - the owner/driver of a combination IS legally responsible for ensuring the rig under their control is within the manufacturer's stated GVM/ATM/GCM.
However, thereby lies the whip in the tail
When ads on TV, all media, the sales brochures, reinforced by the sales people ... AND then seeing the make/model they have chosen driving around with all the bits and bobs one can imagine loaded aboard - how can, and why should, the owner not believe they can load it up to the hilt, fit the bullbar and winch etc etc and then add a tinny to the roof and they will be perfectly OK.
The available information to allow the owner/driver of modern combinations to make an informed decision is at best misleading, difficult to comprehend and apply, and quite possibly bordering on outright lies.
As I said before - Unfortunately, I don't think things will change until the "authorities" get those scales out and begin doing to vehicles/vans what they do to trucks. Only then when the owners of vehicles that have been mislead suffer inconvenience and financial distress and lodge the complaints may there be some change.
Cheers - John
montie said
06:15 PM May 27, 2018
Van and tug ratings are really not that hard to understand.
A simple view...ATM, dont load your unhitched van above that
GVM....don't load your tug above that
GCM....don't load your combination above that.
It's not rocket science....just common sense.
rockylizard said
06:53 PM May 27, 2018
Gday...
Yep ... I wholeheartedly agree with ya Montie ... it definitely ain't rocket science.
So why is it there are so many vans that are over their ATM and vehicles at or above their GVM?
There is only a small percentage of vanners who are members of, or frequent, forums etc in comparison to the number of RVs on the road.
Hence, as demonstrated by a number of "road side education exercises' conducted at various places around Straya in the past 12 months, that have shown the majority of those "helped/educated" were overloaded in either the van/campertrailer or vehicle.... and sometimes both.
Those exercises also highlighted that the majority of those who were "helped/educated" had little to no knowledge of the weights/ratings of their vehicle/van/campertrailer and if they did know them - they had little idea of just what their vehicle and/or van actually weighed.
Cheers - John
Desert Dweller said
06:55 PM May 27, 2018
montie wrote:
Van and tug ratings are really not that hard to understand. A simple view...ATM, dont load your unhitched van above that GVM....don't load your tug above that GCM....don't load your combination above that.
It's not rocket science....just common sense.
As posted previously, there is no need to get close to maximum load ratings.
It's really a matter of one up man ship dragging a massive caravan around.
How much room do two old wrinklies need?
Keeping up appearances.
We saw a bloke yesterday carefully wiping his tug & caravan over with a box of tissues. Madness!
montie said
07:16 PM May 27, 2018
Orockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Yep ... I wholeheartedly agree with ya Montie ... it definitely ain't rocket science.
So why is it there are so many vans that are over their ATM and vehicles at or above their GVM?
There is only a small percentage of vanners who are members of, or frequent, forums etc in comparison to the number of RVs on the road.
Hence, as demonstrated by a number of "road side education exercises' conducted at various places around Straya in the past 12 months, that have shown the majority of those "helped/educated" were overloaded in either the van/campertrailer or vehicle.... and sometimes both.
Those exercises also highlighted that the majority of those who were "helped/educated" had little to no knowledge of the weights/ratings of their vehicle/van/campertrailer and if they did know them - they had little idea of just what their vehicle and/or van actually weighed.
Cheers - John
Now John you are taking a few liberties there....I think we need a much broader view of the big picture with supporting facts before we can draw conclusions that the majority are overloaded and under educated regarding relevant ratings.
I do not support that view based on the limited facts that are available.
rockylizard said
07:32 PM May 27, 2018
Gday...
Interesting Montie. I assume from your comment that you dismiss the results found by the 'helping/educational' exercises that have been carried out over the pas 12 months at Mt Isa in QLD, or at the Brisbane showgrounds by RACQ, or in SA just east of Adelaide, and of course the one at Newmerella organised so ably by the SGT at Orbost. There are others but their location slips my addled old mind at the moment.
Each of those were quite well documented and showed the majority of vehicles that were "pulled over" and "helped/educated" were in varying ways overloaded - or very close to being over their GVM/ATM.
Figures published by each of the combined 'authorities' that conducted those "helping/educational" exercises also stated that the majority of those "pulled over" either did not know the ratings for their vehicle or van/trailer and many did not know what their vehicle weighed and were unaware that, when weighed, they were overweight.
I will certainly concede that this was just a small number of the total towing combinations on the road. However, that 'snapshot' of the travelling, towing public opened some eyes ... and confirmed the fears of the 'authorities' who had conducted the exercises.
And again, I am not castigating or demonising any one who is towing on the highway for this outcome. Despite the system of ATM/GVM/GCM is 'not rocket science' there are far too many vehicles on the road that are towing illegally - in some form or other. One simply needs to look at the questions posed on this and other forums to realise that there is not only confusion in the 'general public' but, given some responses, some on forums also have little detailed knowledge of how it works.
I say again - Unfortunately, I don't think things will change until the "authorities" get those scales out and begin doing to vehicles/vans what they do to trucks. Only then when the owners of vehicles that have been mislead suffer inconvenience and financial distress and lodge the complaints may there be some change.
Cheers - John
Dickodownunder said
08:17 PM May 27, 2018
Desert Dweller wrote:
montie wrote:
Van and tug ratings are really not that hard to understand. A simple view...ATM, dont load your unhitched van above that GVM....don't load your tug above that GCM....don't load your combination above that.
It's not rocket science....just common sense.
As posted previously, there is no need to get close to maximum load ratings.
It's really a matter of one up man ship dragging a massive caravan around.
How much room do two old wrinklies need?
Keeping up appearances.
We saw a bloke yesterday carefully wiping his tug & caravan over with a box of tissues. Madness!
You just dont get it do you?
Not all people with vans live in a house most of the time and venture out on excursions when it suits.
Each persons requirements vary considerably and these requirements are often reflected in the size and type of RV in which they choose to travel.
It has nothing to do with keeping up appearances although you seemed fixated on that concept.
The room people need is personal and who are you to judge them as making a poor selection of van based on your heroic
conceptions of anothers travel requirements.
If someone chooses to clean his vehicle and van then who are you to judge his actions. He is not mad just because you dont agree with what he is doing.
You need to grow up and consider others as all your chest beating is not pleasant and in most cases has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am sure each person who is purchasing or has purchased a van wont give a tinkers cuss what your one sided negative opinion is.
Desert Dweller said
05:45 AM May 28, 2018
Dickodownunder wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
montie wrote:
Van and tug ratings are really not that hard to understand. A simple view...ATM, dont load your unhitched van above that GVM....don't load your tug above that GCM....don't load your combination above that.
It's not rocket science....just common sense.
As posted previously, there is no need to get close to maximum load ratings.
It's really a matter of one up man ship dragging a massive caravan around.
How much room do two old wrinklies need?
Keeping up appearances.
We saw a bloke yesterday carefully wiping his tug & caravan over with a box of tissues. Madness!
You just dont get it do you?
Not all people with vans live in a house most of the time and venture out on excursions when it suits.
Each persons requirements vary considerably and these requirements are often reflected in the size and type of RV in which they choose to travel.
It has nothing to do with keeping up appearances although you seemed fixated on that concept.
The room people need is personal and who are you to judge them as making a poor selection of van based on your heroic
conceptions of anothers travel requirements.
If someone chooses to clean his vehicle and van then who are you to judge his actions. He is not mad just because you dont agree with what he is doing.
You need to grow up and consider others as all your chest beating is not pleasant and in most cases has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am sure each person who is purchasing or has purchased a van wont give a tinkers cuss what your one sided negative opinion is.
We're devastated by your outburst.
Jaahn said
07:10 AM May 28, 2018
Hi
To drag the conversation back from the personal insults !!
In my opinion there are two things to say about loading. Note I do not have a caravan but a MH. The first is what is legal and second what is a sensible loading for safety and easy travelling. The first one, legality seems to be foremost in peoples mind for various reasons. Mainly insurance by the comments on here. Also the thought of being pulled over and put off the road. Fair enough.
The second, sensible loading, would be my first thought if I was to go on the road full time with a rig. I am not so young and not interested in hard work either, nor having any hassels on the road. So setting up a comfortable safe easy to handle rig would be my line of though while selecting the tug and the van. Having the two vehicles loaded to the last KG of the legal allowance or having to get a modification done to get another small increase to fit that extra genny or gas bottle or ??? seems just pushing your luck. I never have believed in pushing things to the limit in my life choices so I doubt I will now.
A twin cab ute seems a good choice from lots of reasons, but the problem seems to be the next choice. The vans are too big and the 'necessary stuff' to take seems excessive. The market has seen the trend and jumped on the bandwagon to sell to this cashed up market everything they think they want. Well nothing new there, so buyer beware. So I do not choose to do that. Good luck to those who do, may your troubles be small ones.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 28th of May 2018 07:14:20 AM
Dickodownunder said
09:10 AM May 28, 2018
Jaahn,
The problem as it stands is that the consumers who purchase these vehicles are (falsely) lead to believe that they will be legal when towing their larger caravan and their required items.
I am almost sure that anyone in this forum who has read this or similar topics, is fully aware of the facts relating to the need to first up not overload the Ute and then ensure the TBW does not take the Ute over its GVM.
Unfortunately the uneducated are in the majority but while on this topic, the subject of who needs what as far as a van goes is not the issue but only the opinion of the people who aware of the downfall of some vehicles that are popular for towing.
If a vehicle is advertised as being able to tow 3500kg then why would a consumer think any different unless he actually trolls through the myriad of varying conditions that change the towing capacity of each vehicle and worse still, the TBW.
As a start it would be simple for a manufacturer to include the maximum TBW in the vehicle GVM and reduce the towing capacity by that amount. Eg 3500 kg - 350kg = 3150kg towing capacity.
Not a full fix, but at least a start on the problem.
I actually feel sorry for most who may be weighed and penalised as I have observed if you get around and ask people about their combination weights, they really believe that they are legal because their vehicle is rated to tow 3500kg.
rockylizard said
09:22 AM May 28, 2018
Dickodownunder wrote:
Jaahn,
The problem as it stands is that the consumers who purchase these vehicles are (falsely) lead to believe that they will be legal when towing their larger caravan and their required items.
SNIP~~~If a vehicle is advertised as being able to tow 3500kg then why would a consumer think any different unless he actually trolls through the myriad of varying conditions that change the towing capacity of each vehicle and worse still, the TBW.
As a start it would be simple for a manufacturer to include the maximum TBW in the vehicle GVM and reduce the towing capacity by that amount. Eg 3500 kg - 350kg = 3150kg towing capacity.
Not a full fix, but at least a start on the problem.~~~SNIP
Gday...
The Nissan Navara and the Patrol Y62 come to mind. This was posted recently in a roadtest/review of the Patrol -
At first glance, the Patrols towing specs look good: it has a 3500kg maximum towing capacity, of which a maximum 350kg can rest on the towball. The Patrol has a 750kg payload and so when loaded to its 3500kg maximum Gross Vehicle Mass, itll still be able to tow its full 3500kg capacity (so Gross Combined Mass is 7000kg).
The downside is the Nissan's 350kg maximum towball download becomes a 250kg maximum if you have loaded the Patrol to its 3500kg GVM. However, if you reduce payload in the Patrol by 70kg, (so its GVM is now 3430kg) maximum TBM is 300kg; reduce it by 100kg and TBM is 325kg. To use the maximum 350kg TBM, youll have to take 130kg out of the Patrol. As if towing weight legalities weren't complicated enough already.
The Patrol does not have trailer sway control as part of its stability suite.
Damned confusing. Why they just couldn't have said the vehicle is rated to tow 2,500Kg with a maximum TBW of 250Kg and leave it at that. NO - because the marketing department needs to show the vehicle is as "good" as a LC 200 ie 3,500Kg towing capability. It can only tow 3,500Kg if just the passengers, full fuel, and a handbag and wallet are in it at the time.
-- Edited by rockylizard on Monday 28th of May 2018 09:24:54 AM
Warren-Pat_01 said
10:31 PM May 28, 2018
As a number of posters have said "G'day" - I'll add another!
G'day!
Thanks John for your info - including the link. And Geoff - regarding the nice "3500kgs that a lot of our cars can/can't tow". We were told that too when we bought the Discovery.
Yes, in the past I've been "heavy" both singularly (vehicle & roof rack) & with our past Eagle Outback. I was shocked to some degree with the results we saw late last year when I put the outfit over the local weigh bridge on our new Port road. Since then I have been getting blindness when reading caravan magazines - "all the goodies we need in our caravans". A friend has asked me what sized generator I would carry - the answer is none (or what could I leave behind to make up for the added weight).
The whole issue needs to be thrashed out by the caravan manufacturers & poorly educated car & caravan dealers. The "extras" we order from the dealer should be on the van when it leaves the factory & included in the tare weight - so suspensions may have to be strengthened.
The EDUCATION of both car & van dealers with LOAD FACTS needs to be a priority - before a sale is negotiated. Being cynical, I don't think that will happen soon!
Obviously if we want to take "everything" with us we need to buy something like a 2500 Dodge Ram & use a pintle hook coupling! I wonder what will happen when all the towing vehicles will be electric?
montie said
06:47 AM May 29, 2018
Most caravan manufacturers these days, especially the mainstream ones, include all factory options in the plated tare. They also weigh each individual van.
If you buy a van and you know what the ATM is, and then overload it, that's not the manufacturer's fault....it's yours.
The same applies to the tug.....load it over the GVM and you are overweight.
If you stay within the ratings you won't have a problem.
Jaahn said
07:56 AM May 29, 2018
Hi
Just another thought. The people who have their rig loaded to within a KG of maximum ever get tempted to take an extra passenger. Perhaps one of the (big)kids or a couple of grandkids. What do you say to them, sorry you will have to run behind till we get there
Last year our son had a break and we did a trip together in the MH. No problem as we had a seat and space for his tent. He thought it was better to sleep seperately. Good choice We can also take the grandkids for a holiday too if we want. We even let them travel inside !!
Jaahn
Dickodownunder said
08:25 AM May 29, 2018
Jaahn wrote:
Hi
Just another thought. The people who have their rig loaded to within a KG of maximum ever get tempted to take an extra passenger. Perhaps one of the (big)kids or a couple of grandkids. What do you say to them, sorry you will have to run behind till we get there
Last year our son had a break and we did a trip together in the MH. No problem as we had a seat and space for his tent. He thought it was better to sleep seperately. Good choice We can also take the grandkids for a holiday too if we want. We even let them travel inside !!
Jaahn
Hi Jaahn,
You are right and your example just goes to reinforce that each personal situation should be accurately assessed.
The accurate assessment is impossible if one is only relying on what the info on the pretty brochure said.
outlaw40 said
08:50 AM May 29, 2018
We can talk this around in circles all day but in the end its your responsibility to see that your rig is compliant in every way .try telling constable plod that the barman said you would be fine with one more beer
KJB said
09:16 AM May 29, 2018
.....or what someone on a Forum said..........
Gary and Barb said
12:19 PM May 29, 2018
Does valuable and informative info need to be qualified because it is produced by an expert in their field who happens to retail related gear?
I'd rather know it than have it denied to me because someone felt aggrieved at the commercialisation.
Gday...
Read the article here
Cheers - John
Another good article Rocky.
For those who take the time to read it, the very last sentence says it all.
"Police and road regulators are also starting to target heavily-laden caravans being towed by one-tonne utes and SUVs which are not suitable, or outside their safe operating range, for the job."
About time.
Canopy, bull bar, spotlights, roof rack, tinny, beer fridge, tool kit, they all reduce the allowable weight that a utility can legally tow.
Caravan has full water tanks, extra batteries/solar panels, bicycles, extra jerry cans, outboard motor, generator & fuel.
A perfect recipe for off road driving, OFF ROAD into a ditch, one incident per day.
As you say it may not be only the dual cab 1 tonne utes that may have a problem but the sales hype is the problem as many owners really do believe that their combination is legal.
The last two sentences from the article linked says it all.
-- Edited by Dickodownunder on Sunday 27th of May 2018 11:32:51 AM
-- Edited by Dickodownunder on Sunday 27th of May 2018 11:33:40 AM
Gday...
Understand your sentiment Outlaw ... did you have a gander at this 'basic comparison' ? http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t64655896/gvmgcm-comparison-expanded/
Yep, utes have potential for more 'available' payload and that shows there. Those tables are not perfect, but give some idea of just how difficult it is to stay within GVM.
As Desert Dweller said earlier - "Canopy, bull bar, spotlights, roof rack, tinny, beer fridge, tool kit, they all reduce the allowable weight that a utility (or any vehicle) can legally tow. Caravan has full water tanks, extra batteries/solar panels, bicycles, extra jerry cans, outboard motor, generator & fuel."
Dicko says it well too - "..........sales hype is the problem as many owners really do believe that their combination is legal."
As well, you are correct in your statement - ".........pay them 3 grand or thereabouts for some springs and shocks and a lovely blue plate and its magically transformed. The tow rating on any vehicle is worked out with a lot of other parameters in mind."
Unfortunately, there is very little informed education being done. Someone needs to tell, no INSIST -
Perhaps only then will poor 'Joe Public" have a better chance than a snowball in hell in getting a vehicle and van that will genuinely make for a safe, legal combination.
It isn't all the fault of the manufacturers, because people are seeing how so many are towing that big 22ft van with a Landcruiser/Ranger/BT-50/Prado etc etc loaded to the hilt AND a tinny on the roof. GEEZ, if they can do that - it must be OK. Sadly, if you ask those who have their vehicles loaded to the hilt if they are overweight they either tell you to F**K orf or have no idea what the vehicle's GVM is and what their vehicle actually weighs.
Unfortunately, I don't think things will change until the "authorities" get those scales out and begin doing to vehicles/vans what they do to trucks. Only then when the owners of vehicles that have been mislead suffer inconvenience and financial distress and lodge the complaints may there be some change.
Cheers - John
Gday...
Again you speak truth Outlaw - the owner/driver of a combination IS legally responsible for ensuring the rig under their control is within the manufacturer's stated GVM/ATM/GCM.
However, thereby lies the whip in the tail
When ads on TV, all media, the sales brochures, reinforced by the sales people ... AND then seeing the make/model they have chosen driving around with all the bits and bobs one can imagine loaded aboard - how can, and why should, the owner not believe they can load it up to the hilt, fit the bullbar and winch etc etc and then add a tinny to the roof and they will be perfectly OK.
The available information to allow the owner/driver of modern combinations to make an informed decision is at best misleading, difficult to comprehend and apply, and quite possibly bordering on outright lies.
As I said before - Unfortunately, I don't think things will change until the "authorities" get those scales out and begin doing to vehicles/vans what they do to trucks. Only then when the owners of vehicles that have been mislead suffer inconvenience and financial distress and lodge the complaints may there be some change.
Cheers - John
A simple view...ATM, dont load your unhitched van above that
GVM....don't load your tug above that
GCM....don't load your combination above that.
It's not rocket science....just common sense.
Gday...
Yep ... I wholeheartedly agree with ya Montie ... it definitely ain't rocket science.
So why is it there are so many vans that are over their ATM and vehicles at or above their GVM?
There is only a small percentage of vanners who are members of, or frequent, forums etc in comparison to the number of RVs on the road.
Hence, as demonstrated by a number of "road side education exercises' conducted at various places around Straya in the past 12 months, that have shown the majority of those "helped/educated" were overloaded in either the van/campertrailer or vehicle.... and sometimes both.
Those exercises also highlighted that the majority of those who were "helped/educated" had little to no knowledge of the weights/ratings of their vehicle/van/campertrailer and if they did know them - they had little idea of just what their vehicle and/or van actually weighed.
Cheers - John
As posted previously, there is no need to get close to maximum load ratings.
It's really a matter of one up man ship dragging a massive caravan around.
How much room do two old wrinklies need?
Keeping up appearances.
We saw a bloke yesterday carefully wiping his tug & caravan over with a box of tissues. Madness!
Gday...
Interesting Montie. I assume from your comment that you dismiss the results found by the 'helping/educational' exercises that have been carried out over the pas 12 months at Mt Isa in QLD, or at the Brisbane showgrounds by RACQ, or in SA just east of Adelaide, and of course the one at Newmerella organised so ably by the SGT at Orbost. There are others but their location slips my addled old mind at the moment.
Each of those were quite well documented and showed the majority of vehicles that were "pulled over" and "helped/educated" were in varying ways overloaded - or very close to being over their GVM/ATM.
Figures published by each of the combined 'authorities' that conducted those "helping/educational" exercises also stated that the majority of those "pulled over" either did not know the ratings for their vehicle or van/trailer and many did not know what their vehicle weighed and were unaware that, when weighed, they were overweight.
I will certainly concede that this was just a small number of the total towing combinations on the road. However, that 'snapshot' of the travelling, towing public opened some eyes ... and confirmed the fears of the 'authorities' who had conducted the exercises.
And again, I am not castigating or demonising any one who is towing on the highway for this outcome. Despite the system of ATM/GVM/GCM is 'not rocket science' there are far too many vehicles on the road that are towing illegally - in some form or other. One simply needs to look at the questions posed on this and other forums to realise that there is not only confusion in the 'general public' but, given some responses, some on forums also have little detailed knowledge of how it works.
I say again - Unfortunately, I don't think things will change until the "authorities" get those scales out and begin doing to vehicles/vans what they do to trucks. Only then when the owners of vehicles that have been mislead suffer inconvenience and financial distress and lodge the complaints may there be some change.
Cheers - John
You just dont get it do you?
Not all people with vans live in a house most of the time and venture out on excursions when it suits.
Each persons requirements vary considerably and these requirements are often reflected in the size and type of RV in which they choose to travel.
It has nothing to do with keeping up appearances although you seemed fixated on that concept.
The room people need is personal and who are you to judge them as making a poor selection of van based on your heroic
conceptions of anothers travel requirements.
If someone chooses to clean his vehicle and van then who are you to judge his actions. He is not mad just because you dont agree with what he is doing.
You need to grow up and consider others as all your chest beating is not pleasant and in most cases has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am sure each person who is purchasing or has purchased a van wont give a tinkers cuss what your one sided negative opinion is.
We're devastated by your outburst.
Hi
To drag the conversation back from the personal insults !!
In my opinion there are two things to say about loading. Note I do not have a caravan but a MH. The first is what is legal and second what is a sensible loading for safety and easy travelling. The first one, legality seems to be foremost in peoples mind for various reasons. Mainly insurance by the comments on here. Also the thought of being pulled over and put off the road. Fair enough.
The second, sensible loading, would be my first thought if I was to go on the road full time with a rig. I am not so young and not interested in hard work either, nor having any hassels on the road. So setting up a comfortable safe easy to handle rig would be my line of though while selecting the tug and the van. Having the two vehicles loaded to the last KG of the legal allowance or having to get a modification done to get another small increase to fit that extra genny or gas bottle or ??? seems just pushing your luck.
I never have believed in pushing things to the limit in my life choices so I doubt I will now.
A twin cab ute seems a good choice from lots of reasons, but the problem seems to be the next choice. The vans are too big and the 'necessary stuff' to take seems excessive. The market has seen the trend and jumped on the bandwagon to sell to this cashed up market everything they think they want. Well nothing new there, so buyer beware.
So I do not choose to do that. Good luck to those who do, may your troubles be small ones.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Monday 28th of May 2018 07:14:20 AM
The problem as it stands is that the consumers who purchase these vehicles are (falsely) lead to believe that they will be legal when towing their larger caravan and their required items.
I am almost sure that anyone in this forum who has read this or similar topics, is fully aware of the facts relating to the need to first up not overload the Ute and then ensure the TBW does not take the Ute over its GVM.
Unfortunately the uneducated are in the majority but while on this topic, the subject of who needs what as far as a van goes is not the issue but only the opinion of the people who aware of the downfall of some vehicles that are popular for towing.
If a vehicle is advertised as being able to tow 3500kg then why would a consumer think any different unless he actually trolls through the myriad of varying conditions that change the towing capacity of each vehicle and worse still, the TBW.
As a start it would be simple for a manufacturer to include the maximum TBW in the vehicle GVM and reduce the towing capacity by that amount. Eg 3500 kg - 350kg = 3150kg towing capacity.
Not a full fix, but at least a start on the problem.
I actually feel sorry for most who may be weighed and penalised as I have observed if you get around and ask people about their combination weights, they really believe that they are legal because their vehicle is rated to tow 3500kg.
Gday...
The Nissan Navara and the Patrol Y62 come to mind. This was posted recently in a roadtest/review of the Patrol -
At first glance, the Patrols towing specs look good: it has a 3500kg maximum towing capacity, of which a maximum 350kg can rest on the towball. The Patrol has a 750kg payload and so when loaded to its 3500kg maximum Gross Vehicle Mass, itll still be able to tow its full 3500kg capacity (so Gross Combined Mass is 7000kg).
The downside is the Nissan's 350kg maximum towball download becomes a 250kg maximum if you have loaded the Patrol to its 3500kg GVM. However, if you reduce payload in the Patrol by 70kg, (so its GVM is now 3430kg) maximum TBM is 300kg; reduce it by 100kg and TBM is 325kg. To use the maximum 350kg TBM, youll have to take 130kg out of the Patrol. As if towing weight legalities weren't complicated enough already.
The Patrol does not have trailer sway control as part of its stability suite.
Damned confusing. Why they just couldn't have said the vehicle is rated to tow 2,500Kg with a maximum TBW of 250Kg and leave it at that. NO - because the marketing department needs to show the vehicle is as "good" as a LC 200 ie 3,500Kg towing capability. It can only tow 3,500Kg if just the passengers, full fuel, and a handbag and wallet are in it at the time.
Here's the thread if ya missed it first time - http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t64646056/tow-test-nissan-y62-patrol-2018/
[EDIT: of course it isn't rocket science
]
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Monday 28th of May 2018 09:24:54 AM
G'day!
Thanks John for your info - including the link. And Geoff - regarding the nice "3500kgs that a lot of our cars can/can't tow". We were told that too when we bought the Discovery.
Yes, in the past I've been "heavy" both singularly (vehicle & roof rack) & with our past Eagle Outback. I was shocked to some degree with the results we saw late last year when I put the outfit over the local weigh bridge on our new Port road. Since then I have been getting blindness when reading caravan magazines - "all the goodies we need in our caravans". A friend has asked me what sized generator I would carry - the answer is none (or what could I leave behind to make up for the added weight).
The whole issue needs to be thrashed out by the caravan manufacturers & poorly educated car & caravan dealers. The "extras" we order from the dealer should be on the van when it leaves the factory & included in the tare weight - so suspensions may have to be strengthened.
The EDUCATION of both car & van dealers with LOAD FACTS needs to be a priority - before a sale is negotiated. Being cynical, I don't think that will happen soon!
Obviously if we want to take "everything" with us we need to buy something like a 2500 Dodge Ram & use a pintle hook coupling! I wonder what will happen when all the towing vehicles will be electric?
If you buy a van and you know what the ATM is, and then overload it, that's not the manufacturer's fault....it's yours.
The same applies to the tug.....load it over the GVM and you are overweight.
If you stay within the ratings you won't have a problem.
Hi
Just another thought. The people who have their rig loaded to within a KG of maximum ever get tempted to take an extra passenger. Perhaps one of the (big)kids or a couple of grandkids. What do you say to them, sorry you will have to run behind till we get there
Last year our son had a break and we did a trip together in the MH. No problem as we had a seat and space for his tent. He thought it was better to sleep seperately. Good choice
We can also take the grandkids for a holiday too if we want. We even let them travel inside !!
Jaahn
Hi Jaahn,
You are right and your example just goes to reinforce that each personal situation should be accurately assessed.
The accurate assessment is impossible if one is only relying on what the info on the pretty brochure said.
.....or what someone on a Forum said..........
Does valuable and informative info need to be qualified because it is produced by an expert in their field who happens to retail related gear?
I'd rather know it than have it denied to me because someone felt aggrieved at the commercialisation.