We ran into a guy a few days ago with a 20ft Patriot caravan towed by a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser.
The caravan had a few dents & scratches on it despite it being relatively new.
Asked the guy what happened & he said that he'd just got rid of a late model Mazda BT50 with all the bells & whistles.
He was driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend.
The road was dry & his weighs were all legal, after braking his rig kept going in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam.
It kind of validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums.
jules47 said
05:56 PM Apr 3, 2018
Scary!
hako said
07:13 PM Apr 3, 2018
Sorry DD but I just don't understand what happened - did the towball snap or was he going too fast for the corner?
Regards
thomas01 said
07:23 PM Apr 3, 2018
So far there are a lot of facts missing from this story.
I find it difficult to understand how a properly set up car/van combo ie: good brake setup and well balanced van, could possibly run off the road at 70kph when travelling on a reasonable road.
Surely there is something not being said.
Robert.
fwdoz said
07:27 PM Apr 3, 2018
Sounds like it was a gravel road & the car just skidded straight on under braking. No other explanation except for a failure of some sort.
KFT said
07:52 PM Apr 3, 2018
I would speculate that in that situation hard braking did nothing for directional control of the tow vehicle
I also wonder if there was sufficient braking on the caravan. Perhaps the settings were not quite right
Lastly the speed of approach into the corner may have been way too high.
same thing could happen with the landcruiser too under similar conditions
just my humble opinion of course
Desert Dweller said
08:15 PM Apr 3, 2018
Thanks for the replies , we really don't have an opinion on this as our rig is lightweight.
The guy said that it was purely a case of too much weight pushing a lightweight tug.
He was a retired farmer that had been operating heavy machinery all his life.
The brakes on the caravan were working fine according to him.
Just retelling a story, don't really care. Thought that it might interest others.
fwdoz said
08:25 PM Apr 3, 2018
Kind of intriguing. Imagine a person who investigates some of these incidents to shed light on the possible causes. The information that would come out of findings could only be of benefit for all caravanners going forward.
That said, my mindset is always drive to the conditions & adjust accordingly.
iana said
09:59 PM Apr 3, 2018
Desert Dweller wrote:
It kind of validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums.
So what does it validate?
thomas01 said
10:06 PM Apr 3, 2018
Not too sure the BT50 should be called a "lightweight tug". My 2016 model with bull-bar, tow-bar and canopy weighs in at just under 2400kg unloaded.
That's a fact. Not a story. Zoom, zoom!
iana said
10:11 PM Apr 3, 2018
A 90' bend at 70kph, Would Daniel Ricardo be able to get around that ?
yobarr said
10:18 PM Apr 3, 2018
iana wrote:
A 90' bend at 70kph, Would Daniel Ricardo be able to get around that ?
Surely you jest?
landy said
10:24 PM Apr 3, 2018
thomas01 wrote:
Not too sure the BT50 should be called a "lightweight tug". My 2016 model with bull-bar, tow-bar and canopy weighs in at just under 2400kg unloaded.
That's a fact. Not a story. Zoom, zoom!
I understood he was towing it with a Landcruiser I wouldn't call that a lightweight either.
thomas01 said
10:41 PM Apr 3, 2018
Landy,
May be wrong, but my understanding of the situation is that the crash happened while towing with the Mazda and he now drives a cruiser.
Anyhow, it could be that even a Mack truck may not have got him around the corner if the speed wasn't suitable for the conditions.
Delta18 said
10:59 PM Apr 3, 2018
iana wrote:
A 90' bend at 70kph, Would Daniel Ricardo be able to get around that ?
On a gravel road towing a caravan, I doubt it.
montie said
05:54 AM Apr 4, 2018
iana wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
It kind of validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums.
So what does it validate?
It validates the fact that it is advisable from a safety perspective that the loaded tug weight should exceed the loaded van weight by at least 10%.
-- Edited by montie on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 05:55:52 AM
montie said
05:59 AM Apr 4, 2018
thomas01 wrote:
Not too sure the BT50 should be called a "lightweight tug". My 2016 model with bull-bar, tow-bar and canopy weighs in at just under 2400kg unloaded.
That's a fact. Not a story. Zoom, zoom!
And you would be happy hooking 3.5 tonne on the back of it?
Hewy54 said
06:37 AM Apr 4, 2018
BT50 has a kerb weight of 2042 kg.
Landcruiser has a kerb weight of 2640.
Under the same conditions would the extra weight of 600 kg have made the difference between being able to make the corner or not?
Yes I agree that in many instances, any of the twin cab utes towing 3.5 t, and thus having a vehicle weight of under 2.5 t is not desirable.
I am still old school and believe that the towing vehicle should be at least more than the van. This would then mean that even the Landcruiser is unsuitable.
In this instance of driving straight through a corner on a gravel road I believe that other factors had had an influence.
It is stretching it a bit to use this secondhand story to validate anything that folk have said on any forum.
Dickodownunder said
07:44 AM Apr 4, 2018
Without questioning the validity of this story, I note that no one has yet asked wether the rig had a WDH fitted.
Contrary to some opinions on here and other forums, WDH equipment DOES improve steering by providing the necessary downforce on the front axle to maintain steering integrity.
If the van weight 3.5T then the ute was not suitable for safety even though manufacturers state the magical 3.5T towing capacity.
Desert Dweller said
07:59 AM Apr 4, 2018
This accident wasn't a secondhand story, it was told to us by the guy it actually happened to. It became secondhand when it was posted on here by us.
To straighten a few misnomers out on the above posts.
1. He was driving the Mazda not the Toyota.
2. He isn't Daniel Ricardo, he's a 70+ year old retired wheat farmer that assured us that he was driving conservatively at the time of the accident.
3. After operating wheat harvesting/sowing machinery all his life, a BT50 IS a lightweight piece of kit to him.
4. He was doing SIXTY to seventy kph BEFORE he came to the right hand curve, NOT through it.
5. Our caravan weighs 1580kg fully loaded (our choice) so NONE of this concerns us at all. It may interest/assist others though, which is why we posted it in the first place.
6. We didn't post this thread to ''stir the pot'' or cause a ''bun fight''. We're NOT even interested in caravans as such. Our one & only van is just a means of traveling from A to B.
-- Edited by Desert Dweller on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 08:16:23 AM
dogbox said
08:09 AM Apr 4, 2018
might have happened no matter what he was towing with
yobarr said
08:13 AM Apr 4, 2018
Hewy54 wrote:
BT50 has a kerb weight of 2042 kg. Landcruiser has a kerb weight of 2640. Under the same conditions would the extra weight of 600 kg have made the difference between being able to make the corner or not? Yes I agree that in many instances, any of the twin cab utes towing 3.5 t, and thus having a vehicle weight of under 2.5 t is not desirable. I am still old school and believe that the towing vehicle should be at least more than the van. This would then mean that even the Landcruiser is unsuitable.
In this instance of driving straight through a corner on a gravel road I believe that other factors had had an influence. It is stretching it a bit to use this secondhand story to validate anything that folk have said on any forum.
Hi Steve....Make no mistake,I am no fan of LC200s but with a 3500kg van connected,the car could be at its GVM of 3350kg, so with ball weight of 350kg (10%) the van would then weigh 3150kg.(GTM) Thus the car is heavier than the van,albeit by only 6%. Seems to me that people who waffle on about towing 3500kg with twin-cabs,while possibly legal,are bordering on being irresponsible? And dont even mention rear axle weights. Cheers
mustangdude said
08:33 AM Apr 4, 2018
People are concerned about the car weight being less than the van.
Look at prime movers, the truck only weighs 8,000kg towing a payload of 24,000kg plus, and over half that weight loaded towards the rear of the trailer.
I think it's more about the caravan brakes being efficient (eg adjusted for the correct speed) and coming on at the right time.
Plus obviously driving style is important too.
Dickodownunder said
08:46 AM Apr 4, 2018
mustangdude wrote:
People are concerned about the car weight being less than the van.
Look at prime movers, the truck only weighs 8,000kg towing a payload of 24,000kg plus, and over half that weight loaded towards the rear of the trailer.
I think it's more about the caravan brakes being efficient (eg adjusted for the correct speed) and coming on at the right time.
Plus obviously driving style is important too.
A semi trailer combination is entirely different to a car and caravan.
the pivot point on a semi is usually just forward of the centre of the rear axle combination.
This moves some of the weight on the trailer onto the steer and drive axles.
So your 8 tonne prime mover will weigh up to 22 tonne with a loaded trailer connected.
These figures are only an example plus the big fact is that a Caravan on a car is actually a pig trailer and causes instability due to the pivot point being behind the rear axle.
There are many posts in here relating to this if you have a search.
rockylizard said
08:52 AM Apr 4, 2018
Gday...
Interesting how a casual side-comment within a thread becomes attributed as a 'fact of the tale'.
There has been no mention of the weight of the van ... only that it was a 20ft Patriot.
So how did the story become that the bloke was a fool for towing a 3,500Kg van behind a BT50?
I have no idea what could or might have caused the incident related by DD.
However, I reckon the make and model of the tow vehicle and the make and model of the van has little to do with what caused this unfortunate incident despite what the bloke who told the tale to DD maintains.
The problem could have been -
lack of concentration by driver;
misreading of distance to oncoming corner;
misjudging severity of the turn;
failure to slow momentum sufficiently;
loose gravel road;
too severe application of brakes;
brakes applied too late;
too quick an application of steering - ie wheel turned too severely, breaking traction;
BT50 overloaded in rear;
poorly loaded van applying too much weight on towball;
no WDH to restore weight distribution to front wheels;
brakes on van faulty;
brakes on van not properly adjusted;
brake controller faulty;
a BT50 (or any other ute) is useless and we all should have a Landcruiser 200 but not a Jeep or Land Rover.
I am sure others could continue, or even elaborate on, the list.
However, let's be honest. It is imperative that all caravanners are -
FULLY aware of the weights of their vehicles and van;
maintain the condition of all aspects of their vehicle and van regularly;
drive well within the abilities of oneself, the vehicle and conditions.
Again, the list could go on.
Jest sayin'
Cheers - John
Dickodownunder said
09:01 AM Apr 4, 2018
rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Interesting how a casual side-comment within a thread becomes attributed as a 'fact of the tale'.
There has been no mention of the weight of the van ... only that it was a 20ft Patriot.
So how did the story become that the bloke was a fool for towing a 3,500Kg van behind a BT50?
I have no idea what could or might have caused the incident related by DD.
However, I reckon the make and model of the tow vehicle and the make and model of the van has little to do with what caused this unfortunate incident despite what the bloke who told the tale to DD maintains.
The problem could have been -
lack of concentration by driver;
misreading of distance to oncoming corner;
misjudging severity of the turn;
failure to slow momentum sufficiently;
loose gravel road;
too severe application of brakes;
brakes applied too late;
too quick an application of steering - ie wheel turned too severely, breaking traction;
BT50 overloaded in rear;
poorly loaded van applying too much weight on towball;
no WDH to restore weight distribution to front wheels;
brakes on van faulty;
brakes on van not properly adjusted;
brake controller faulty;
a BT50 (or any other ute) is useless and we all should have a Landcruiser 200 but not a Jeep or Land Rover.
I am sure others could continue, or even elaborate on, the list.
However, let's be honest. It is imperative that all caravanners are -
FULLY aware of the weights of their vehicles and van;
maintain the condition of all aspects of their vehicle and van regularly;
drive well within the abilities of oneself, the vehicle and conditions.
Again, the list could go on.
Jest sayin'
Cheers - John
iana said
10:16 AM Apr 4, 2018
The story didn't mention a gravel road either! just that it was dry.
I drive a BT50 and the all up weight will be the combined max weight or close.
DD I appreciate that you contributed content. The article written in a different manner may have been better.
Dickodownunder said
10:41 AM Apr 4, 2018
Desert Dweller wrote:
The guy said that it was purely a case of too much weight pushing a lightweight tug.
He was a retired farmer that had been operating heavy machinery all his life.
From the "horses mouth" so to speak.
I am truly amazed the Rocky didn't include the incorrect use of the word "duel" in DD's title
You're slippin' Rocky....
yobarr said
10:48 AM Apr 4, 2018
Dickodownunder wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
The guy said that it was purely a case of too much weight pushing a lightweight tug.
He was a retired farmer that had been operating heavy machinery all his life.
From the "horses mouth" so to speak.
I am truly amazed the Rocky didn't include the incorrect use of the word "duel" in DD's title
You're slippin' Rocky....
Noticed that early on,but some people get quite upset when such things are pointed out,so I let it ride. Have you considered that perhaps the car had a duel with the fence? Cheers
Dickodownunder said
10:54 AM Apr 4, 2018
yobarr wrote:
Dickodownunder wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
The guy said that it was purely a case of too much weight pushing a lightweight tug.
He was a retired farmer that had been operating heavy machinery all his life.
From the "horses mouth" so to speak.
I am truly amazed the Rocky didn't include the incorrect use of the word "duel" in DD's title
You're slippin' Rocky....
Noticed that early on,but some people get quite upset when such things are pointed out,so I let it ride. Have you considered that perhaps the car had a duel with the fence? Cheers
We ran into a guy a few days ago with a 20ft Patriot caravan towed by a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser.
The caravan had a few dents & scratches on it despite it being relatively new.
Asked the guy what happened & he said that he'd just got rid of a late model Mazda BT50 with all the bells & whistles.
He was driving at 60-70kph on a back road & came to a 90 degree right hand bend.
The road was dry & his weighs were all legal, after braking his rig kept going in a straight line through a fence into a farm paddock pulling up just before a dam.
It kind of validates what some folk have been saying on this & other forums.
Regards
I find it difficult to understand how a properly set up car/van combo ie: good brake setup and well balanced van, could possibly run off the road at 70kph when travelling on a reasonable road.
Surely there is something not being said.
Robert.
I also wonder if there was sufficient braking on the caravan. Perhaps the settings were not quite right
Lastly the speed of approach into the corner may have been way too high.
same thing could happen with the landcruiser too under similar conditions
just my humble opinion of course
Thanks for the replies , we really don't have an opinion on this as our rig is lightweight.
The guy said that it was purely a case of too much weight pushing a lightweight tug.
He was a retired farmer that had been operating heavy machinery all his life.
The brakes on the caravan were working fine according to him.
Just retelling a story, don't really care. Thought that it might interest others.
Kind of intriguing. Imagine a person who investigates some of these incidents to shed light on the possible causes. The information that would come out of findings could only be of benefit for all caravanners going forward.
That said, my mindset is always drive to the conditions & adjust accordingly.
So what does it validate?
That's a fact. Not a story. Zoom, zoom!
Surely you jest?
I understood he was towing it with a Landcruiser I wouldn't call that a lightweight either.
May be wrong, but my understanding of the situation is that the crash happened while towing with the Mazda and he now drives a cruiser.
Anyhow, it could be that even a Mack truck may not have got him around the corner if the speed wasn't suitable for the conditions.
On a gravel road towing a caravan, I doubt it.
It validates the fact that it is advisable from a safety perspective that the loaded tug weight should exceed the loaded van weight by at least 10%.
-- Edited by montie on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 05:55:52 AM
And you would be happy hooking 3.5 tonne on the back of it?
Landcruiser has a kerb weight of 2640.
Under the same conditions would the extra weight of 600 kg have made the difference between being able to make the corner or not?
Yes I agree that in many instances, any of the twin cab utes towing 3.5 t, and thus having a vehicle weight of under 2.5 t is not desirable.
I am still old school and believe that the towing vehicle should be at least more than the van. This would then mean that even the Landcruiser is unsuitable.
In this instance of driving straight through a corner on a gravel road I believe that other factors had had an influence.
It is stretching it a bit to use this secondhand story to validate anything that folk have said on any forum.
Contrary to some opinions on here and other forums, WDH equipment DOES improve steering by providing the necessary downforce on the front axle to maintain steering integrity.
If the van weight 3.5T then the ute was not suitable for safety even though manufacturers state the magical 3.5T towing capacity.
This accident wasn't a secondhand story, it was told to us by the guy it actually happened to. It became secondhand when it was posted on here by us.
To straighten a few misnomers out on the above posts.
1. He was driving the Mazda not the Toyota.
2. He isn't Daniel Ricardo, he's a 70+ year old retired wheat farmer that assured us that he was driving conservatively at the time of the accident.
3. After operating wheat harvesting/sowing machinery all his life, a BT50 IS a lightweight piece of kit to him.
4. He was doing SIXTY to seventy kph BEFORE he came to the right hand curve, NOT through it.
5. Our caravan weighs 1580kg fully loaded (our choice) so NONE of this concerns us at all. It may interest/assist others though, which is why we posted it in the first place.
6. We didn't post this thread to ''stir the pot'' or cause a ''bun fight''. We're NOT even interested in caravans as such. Our one & only van is just a means of traveling from A to B.
-- Edited by Desert Dweller on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 08:16:23 AM
Hi Steve....Make no mistake,I am no fan of LC200s but with a 3500kg van connected,the car could be at its GVM of 3350kg, so with ball weight of 350kg (10%) the van would then weigh 3150kg.(GTM) Thus the car is heavier than the van,albeit by only 6%. Seems to me that people who waffle on about towing 3500kg with twin-cabs,while possibly legal,are bordering on being irresponsible? And dont even mention rear axle weights. Cheers
Look at prime movers, the truck only weighs 8,000kg towing a payload of 24,000kg plus, and over half that weight loaded towards the rear of the trailer.
I think it's more about the caravan brakes being efficient (eg adjusted for the correct speed) and coming on at the right time.
Plus obviously driving style is important too.
A semi trailer combination is entirely different to a car and caravan.
the pivot point on a semi is usually just forward of the centre of the rear axle combination.
This moves some of the weight on the trailer onto the steer and drive axles.
So your 8 tonne prime mover will weigh up to 22 tonne with a loaded trailer connected.
These figures are only an example plus the big fact is that a Caravan on a car is actually a pig trailer and causes instability due to the pivot point being behind the rear axle.
There are many posts in here relating to this if you have a search.
Gday...
Interesting how a casual side-comment within a thread becomes attributed as a 'fact of the tale'.
There has been no mention of the weight of the van ... only that it was a 20ft Patriot.
So how did the story become that the bloke was a fool for towing a 3,500Kg van behind a BT50?
I have no idea what could or might have caused the incident related by DD.
However, I reckon the make and model of the tow vehicle and the make and model of the van has little to do with what caused this unfortunate incident despite what the bloke who told the tale to DD maintains.
The problem could have been -
I am sure others could continue, or even elaborate on, the list.
However, let's be honest. It is imperative that all caravanners are -
Again, the list could go on.
Jest sayin'
Cheers - John
I drive a BT50 and the all up weight will be the combined max weight or close.
DD I appreciate that you contributed content. The article written in a different manner may have been better.
From the "horses mouth" so to speak.
I am truly amazed the Rocky didn't include the incorrect use of the word "duel" in DD's title
You're slippin' Rocky....
Noticed that early on,but some people get quite upset when such things are pointed out,so I let it ride. Have you considered that perhaps the car had a duel with the fence? Cheers
And the fence "one" or is it "won" yobarr?
