Talking to a coupla Solar installers doing a home up oyr srtreet.
(60% here have Solar on roof now.)
We were talking panels. Longevity. reliability.
Change in SOME of the Chinese equipment (For the better in some cases).
Also we were talking battery packs for home. (Smaller for vans, M\Homes etc.)
They sell the TESLA packs. but he was saying same as me.
Wait a coupla yrs. These newer Liquid content ones are THE next gen.
IN capacity and electrical power. At a fraction of price.
Also these new Hybrid Inv Battery pack\grid units will be better for home systems.
Ergon are even controlling the inverter output to Grid and home.
at certain times now too.
According to what THEY require. From "0" to whatever. regardless of what YOU generating.
We only have the one supplier. NO Competition. Just Gov\t V Gov\t.
A coupla you Solar clued ones should chat to s few installers. Get the gist of it
Remember it (I don't) and pass it on here. hey.
T1 Terry said
02:52 PM Nov 1, 2017
A bit more information regarding "These newer Liquid content ones are THE next gen." If you are referring to the Redflow zinc-bromine flow batteries they are hardly "THE next generation"as they have had more come backs than John Farnham since the initial birth back in 1967. If you are talking about the salt water batteries by Aquion, they have gone to the wall and are in the receivers hands at the moment, so you might be waiting for quite a while. Talk is that this one of those corporate attacks much like Myers are going through at the moment, but who knows. Unless they get the brains behind the idea, Jay Whitacre, back on board the whole thing will end up in the recycle bin.
There is absolutely nothing out there that can compete with lithium at the moment and as far as $$ wise and cycle life nothing competes with LYP in the lithium stakes.
It is very hard to talk to anyone who is really up to speed on this stuff because the marketing mobs are in full spin mode at the moment. We don't need to carry on with this nonsense cause we are as busy as a one armed wall paper hanger and advanced booked till next yr.
We are installing a full off grid system out in Crystal Brook next week, the house is on the grid and has solar feed in but this system will be separate. It is designed to power his fridges and freezers primarily and what ever else in the house it can handle while the weather is good. This way they maximise the feed in from their present system and get a reliable power supply for the fridges and freezers so they don't defrost and waste all the contents.
As far as battery backed feed into the grid, you'd need rocks in ya head to even consider it. Why would you pay out all that money and have the responsibility of maintenance and replacement as required to supply the grid with power cheap when the generators are asking for the big $$?
If you already have a good feed in tariff, don't mess with it, just install an off grid system to run part of the house that needs a permanent power supply and switch the other parts between the off grid and grid depending on how well the battery pack/solar is going. Pays for itself in increased income from the grid feed in stuff. and you get a reliable supply and cheaper power as a bonus
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Wednesday 1st of November 2017 02:54:24 PM
mr glassies said
07:42 PM Nov 2, 2017
You go Terry lol least you can walk the walk . Not like a lot of people that fall over them selves lmdo .
Dibs
Cruising Cruze said
09:13 PM Nov 2, 2017
Hi Greame
Good on you mateeeeeeeeeeeee
macka17 said
09:18 PM Nov 2, 2017
Terry. The pricing of these Lif4po? whatever. I think people will be using Wet and AGM cells for a lot more yrs yet.
Only people with more than a few bucks to spare and battery freaks (Like me with my torches and fishing gear) would really go far down that road. Till pricing comes into parity with normal ones. $800+ plus an AGM to boost it?. PER battery?
IF the weights of battery\s in your rig give a person problems. He has bigger problems to worry about than that..
Latest technology is fine. Just let somebody else practice on it. I reckon.
-- Edited by macka17 on Thursday 2nd of November 2017 09:19:41 PM
T1 Terry said
01:55 PM Nov 4, 2017
macka17 wrote:
Terry. The pricing of these Lif4po? whatever. I think people will be using Wet and AGM cells for a lot more yrs yet.
Only people with more than a few bucks to spare and battery freaks (Like me with my torches and fishing gear) would really go far down that road. Till pricing comes into parity with normal ones. $800+ plus an AGM to boost it?. PER battery?
IF the weights of battery\s in your rig give a person problems. He has bigger problems to worry about than that..
Latest technology is fine. Just let somebody else practice on it. I reckon.
-- Edited by macka17 on Thursday 2nd of November 2017 09:19:41 PM
Ummm.... no mention of the "liquid content battery" or a link Macka?
Quote
They sell the TESLA packs. but he was saying same as me.
Wait a coupla yrs. These newer Liquid content ones are THE next gen.
IN capacity and electrical power. At a fraction of price.
If you are gunna talk the talk you need to be able to back it up. After installing more than 200 systems for off grid use I know my side of it, so let's here your side of it
T1 Terry
macka17 said
12:46 PM Nov 5, 2017
MY side..
Hnmmm. Just a USER for 40 yrs and taking note of what the tradies tell me when they doing such.
A man can't do much more than that. When he Mechanical not electric orientated.
PS I always said I was near 0 when it comes to fancy figures in things electrical.
I'm Just the practical side of things..
I'm VERY good an old, dozer dragline or yacht though. Everybody to their own hey.
I'm just talking several Professionals talk Information passed TO ME, in conversations. is all. Last one was an A class electronics tech so should know a little?. He designed and installed (Part owner)
Who IS right. Will eventuate eventually.
Same a panels and normal battery's I install Battery's to suit what I need then top up on panels til it floats at MY requirements. As a lot do.
Plus. some can't afford all in one hit.
I can guarantee one thing though. Those Lifpo4? whatever battery's will NOT eventuate for the normal working man for a LOOONG time. if ever.
Bit like a Lambo, and a Falcon. Not everything is for everybody.
You happy with what you sell and pushing. Most are happy with what there is for a long while yet.
Enjoy them. At $800ish a pop. NOT too many have them on their list. regardless of what some say they will do.
Bit less crap in van. Plenty of room for AGM's (weight) anyway hey.
PS. It's funny not many (only 1 I've seen yet) Will quote on public paper. what a fixed?. certain capacity battery bank will cost. installed to suit a system. In Dollars...(he quoted individual battery prices)
You want to?. 2 or three examples. 1 x caravan. Usual. plus Wash mach. coffee maker. Microwave etc etc.
1 x home with full household items. OFF grid. Panels. Battery bank and install. (You reckon you've done a few now.)
Examples in Dollars would be nice. for future possible customers, from here alone. Just a basic system no fancy what if's.??? 1 23ft van. 1 x 4 bed home single storey. (or double) would be a good start point.
OR Just a battery bank for a 5kw solar system ready installed.(5 kw std system) We can compare with Tesla then.
I'm actually in line for an OFF grid over pool deck to cover pool pumps and heaters.
Panels sorted. And also, MY reason for battery interests.
I WILL buy a bank WHEN.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 5th of November 2017 12:51:31 PM
Hewy54 said
02:46 PM Nov 5, 2017
Thankyou T1Terry for your expert advice on solar/battery issues.
It is reassuring to know that we can still get expert advice on this topic that is not biased or founded on untruths.
Continue the good work.
macka17 said
06:04 PM Nov 5, 2017
Waitiiiiing.
meetoo said
07:22 PM Nov 5, 2017
More like Baitiiiing.
macka, behave yourself. Please.
You are a bit grumpy tonight.
Cheers, John.
macka17 said
01:35 AM Nov 6, 2017
No John.
he keeps on about his super battery's. I'm just wondering. basically for everybody. How viable ARE they in real world.
do we wait for pricing to drop or are they likely to bee too over the top for too long??.
Just interested. I am after a bank for my Pool Off Grid at later date.
I do use Li-Ion a lot. in 18650 and 22650 sizes. Got some 14500? on way to to replace AA cells too. Panasonic. LG or Sony (Japan). or Soshine ,China. only. KeepPower too exxy and only run Pana's inside anyway, as do most others.
PS. NEVER Grumpy in real life.
You wouldn't believe how laid back he is.
Just reacts to others. At times, is all.
-- Edited by macka17 on Monday 6th of November 2017 01:37:21 AM
T1 Terry said
02:43 PM Nov 6, 2017
Hi Macka, been as busy as a one armed wall paper hanger so haven't had a chance to get back on here. Cost....... We only bulid custom systems to suit the customer because there is no such thing as drop in lithium batteries.... that actually do what they are supposed to do. Have already sorted one drop in lithium battery set up the best I could, but not possible to actually get it working perfectly but they should last a lot longer than the 7mths one of the batteries lasted. 5kW of solar and how many kWh of battery? Can't just pluck a figure out of the air or attempt to match the claims of many installers and suppliers, they quote rather rubbery figures. Take an AGM deep cycle battery set up for example, 600Ah x 24v = 7200wH or 7.2kWh.... but you can't get that 7.2kWh out of the battery and still maintain the 24v required to power the inverter, you can get half of that if you are happy to use the battery down to 50% SOC and can get it back to 100% SOC each recharge. Keep in mind that it is near impossible to get a lead acid battery back to 100%SOC while still in use..... so would there actually even be 50% of the capacity available and how long would 300Ah @ 24v remain as 50% of the capacity? As far as battery cost, in lead acid comparison terms, $4 per Ah @ 12v nom. does that help?
As far as the cop out about only relaying what the tradies have tod you Quote "They sell the TESLA packs. but he was saying same as me.
Wait a coupla yrs. These newer Liquid content ones are THE next gen.
IN capacity and electrical power. At a fraction of price."
This clearly says you are the one also saying this so we need to know just what the liquid content batteries are? If you are going to make a comment like this on a forum you have to be able to back it up if you want to keep your head above liquid level that tends to pour down on anyone who makes wild claims but can't back them up
T1 Terry
macka17 said
07:46 PM Nov 6, 2017
Thank's Terry.
Normally
The Battery KW would be whatever was needed to keep whatever load I was applying,
to above 12.4\12.5v by Daylight?. Linked to my 5kw of solar.
As you said. You have to calculate that.
But no good adding more battery than panels can load hey.
Above that. Genny input?.
So it's basically the panels that control your ON grid.
Off grid. The paddock size and no of panels controls it.
More the panels more the battery cap. But still controlled by voltages.
I Never took\take battery bank (on yachts)down below 12.4 or 12.5v. at the most.
Otherwise any battery\s will have shorter life.
Or do these lithium cells circumvent that limit.?.
-----------
The liquid storage is what they said. Not mentioning type of.
Dumb old electrics me wouldn't have understood anyway or remembered anyway..
" but he was saying same as me."".
Was just what I'd heard from other Solar operators.
incl the local ERGON crews next door. (Rog's Brother. at Barby.)
and read about battery systems\types supposedly coming on line
on some of the Solar forums I've looked at.
Whirlpool have a good selection of Installers on there. With some doing it a long time.
If your battery's are $1 per Ah. at 12v. they are a lot cheaper than the $800 per 100a battery quoted by other bloke.
Out of interest. (I am looking )
I'll send you an I.M.
jules47 said
10:48 PM Nov 6, 2017
The batteries in our motorhome are 6-1/2 years old - used EVERY day- we have 2 x 120ah deep cycle(?) think that is what they are called, and 210 w on the roof.
These batteries have never been below 12.4 - and that is a rarity - not sure of the brand but will probably look at getting the same ones,
jules47 said
10:53 PM Nov 6, 2017
Having posted that - they will probably die tomorrow!
The batteries in our motorhome are 6-1/2 years old - used EVERY day- we have 2 x 120ah deep cycle(?) think that is what they are called, and 210 w on the roof.
These batteries have never been below 12.4 - and that is a rarity - not sure of the brand but will probably look at getting the same ones,
You certainly don't use the batteries much if they have never been below 12.4v over night after rainy weather and they are now 6 1/2 yrs old. I'd suggest a capacity test but when they fell over I'd be blamed for their death, not that they were dead already you just hadn't seen the signs.
Lithium batteries are for those who use their batteries, not keep them as pets. Those who spend most of their time off grid and stay away for more than a week at a time wonder how they ever got by once the changed up to lithium. Very few of them still carry their generator and slowly but surely more things accepted as comfort requirements make their way into the set up.
People as just built that way, the battery bank is similar to the wallet, you stop spending when the wallet is empty, batteries are similar so when that empty point moves up a bit the temptation to find the empty point is too great to ignore. That empty point is a long way away compared to where it was with the AGM batteries
T1 Terry
rockylizard said
01:39 PM Nov 7, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
jules47 wrote:
The batteries in our motorhome are 6-1/2 years old - used EVERY day- we have 2 x 120ah deep cycle(?) think that is what they are called, and 210 w on the roof.
These batteries have never been below 12.4 - and that is a rarity - not sure of the brand but will probably look at getting the same ones,
You certainly don't use the batteries much if they have never been below 12.4v over night after rainy weather and they are now 6 1/2 yrs old. I'd suggest a capacity test but when they fell over I'd be blamed for their death, not that they were dead already you just hadn't seen the signs.
Lithium batteries are for those who use their batteries, not keep them as pets. Those who spend most of their time off grid and stay away for more than a week at a time wonder how they ever got by once the changed up to lithium. Very few of them still carry their generator and slowly but surely more things accepted as comfort requirements make their way into the set up.
People as just built that way, the battery bank is similar to the wallet, you stop spending when the wallet is empty, batteries are similar so when that empty point moves up a bit the temptation to find the empty point is too great to ignore. That empty point is a long way away compared to where it was with the AGM batteries
T1 Terry
Gday...
Firstly, given the little I know, have read and heard about Lithium batteries/systems I can only agree they appear impressive.
Particularly, as you say, for those who have heavy power usage requirements, wish to camp 'off the grid' for extended periods for many years to come, then they must be worth the considerable initial outlay.
However, I have found that my AGM 'system' performs much as Jules has indicated theirs does.
I have been camping 'off the grid' for weeks at a time over the past eight years with my one 120Ahr AGM and 360W solar on the roof. My battery has not been below 12.4V at daybreak for the nearly four years it has been installed. I had a 100Ahr before that. Even on overcast days, the battery is restored to float (13.4V) by lunchtime - definitely by mid-morning in sunny weather.
I have found though that if there are three or four consecutive days of rain - I would need to get the genny out on the fourth day to 'tickle' the battery back to a 'safer' SOC. To be fair the genny has only been started once for five hours two years ago when camped on the Murrumbidgee.
I admit I am a light user of power. I have LEDs throughout the van and if I only use one of two of them with just the radio and laptop for about four hours of a night, the battery doesn't get below 12.6V at daybreak. If I use the TV for two hours on the occasional night, that is when I see 12.4V at daybreak. The fridge runs on gas, I cook on the campfire or gas in van.
I don't think my batteries are "kept as pets" it is just that I don't use much power and the solar keeps the battery in good nick.
I reckon I am more likely to expire before the AGMs do so I would find I don't have enough time to recoup the investment into lithium.
So, given all that, converting to a lithium system, despite its capabilities, is just not worth it to me.
Cheers - John
jules47 said
02:16 PM Nov 7, 2017
Re your reply to my post Terry - our batteries get used every day (365 days a year) - mostly charging laptops, phones etc. etc. and into the night as well. We have a dimmable led light bar, which is pretty well the only light we use - we run1 2v Caframo fans, sometimes all day, and at night. We use gas or the Weber for cooking. We don't have satellite TV - or even watch TV (we do have one), we run our stereo all day (24 hrs). We have a 600 (whatever it is) inverter for things like razors, hair dryer etc. , we have a three way fridge (tropically rated) run on gas. I also have a Black & Decker vacuum cleaner that is very power efficient as well.
We have no need for coffee makers, constant hot water, toaster, or air conditioners, or electric blankets or ovens.
If we get bad weather for a couple of days - we put the genny on.
Our batteries are not pets, they make our lifestyle possible, and we take care of them. I agree with RL - not worth it to us, good though we hear the system is.
As someone a long time ago said to me - if it ain't broke, don't "fix" it!
(ps - I thought your remark saying our batteries are "pets" was quite unnecessary and slightly supercilious)
Magnarc said
02:24 PM Nov 7, 2017
I read your comments with interest John, your experience almost mirrors ours. We have two 120ah Full Rivers that have been installed for two years fed by 400w roof panels. The batteries have never gone below 12.4 to my knowledge. As for Lithium batteries I have no doubt that they are much better for extended bush sojourns but, as we only spend at most three to four days doing this the Lithium's would not benefit us much from a cost point of view.
Many thanks Terry for your informative post on this subject.
-- Edited by Magnarc on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 02:24:49 PM
Sweet William said
11:26 AM Nov 8, 2017
Hello all, may I as a user of both types add some comments.
My primary system is a 100ah x 24v lithium with 1 kw of solar charge. This is marginal to keep ahead of my all electric camper using a 3kw LF inverter. A further 100ah is planned. This does all cooking and refrigeration at 240v and all low power devices are 12v through dc-dc inverters. I have a single burner gas cartridge stove for backup. Most cooking is done on a 800w frypan and hot water with a 700w Birko jug.
When capacity testing the lithiums they boil the birko for hours.
My secondary system is a 12v LA pack of various 100ah batteries in parallel fed by 500w 0f 24v panels all feeding a 1.3kw LF inverter for 240v. This will just hang in long enough to boil the birko. Take one of the batteries out of the pack and voltage droop under load drops the inverter off before it boils.
This illustrates the vital differences between the two chemistries. For heavy long loads, lithium wins. If loads are more moderate, LA is sufficient and much cheaper initially.
Caravans set up with gas to cook and refrigerate essentially have no heavy electrical loads to service and the present system is wonderful. Swap out the gas frige for a compressor frige of any type and the electricity demand goes up a lot, well in excess of what a 100ah LA can supply. And so the merry-go-round begins.
"The difficult is easy, the impossible merely takes a little longer.
These days, EVERYTHING takes a little longer"
T1 Terry said
11:47 AM Nov 8, 2017
jules47 wrote:
Re your reply to my post Terry - our batteries get used every day (365 days a year) - mostly charging laptops, phones etc. etc. and into the night as well. We have a dimmable led light bar, which is pretty well the only light we use - we run1 2v Caframo fans, sometimes all day, and at night. We use gas or the Weber for cooking. We don't have satellite TV - or even watch TV (we do have one), we run our stereo all day (24 hrs). We have a 600 (whatever it is) inverter for things like razors, hair dryer etc. , we have a three way fridge (tropically rated) run on gas. I also have a Black & Decker vacuum cleaner that is very power efficient as well.
We have no need for coffee makers, constant hot water, toaster, or air conditioners, or electric blankets or ovens.
If we get bad weather for a couple of days - we put the genny on.
Our batteries are not pets, they make our lifestyle possible, and we take care of them. I agree with RL - not worth it to us, good though we hear the system is.
As someone a long time ago said to me - if it ain't broke, don't "fix" it!
(ps - I thought your remark saying our batteries are "pets" was quite unnecessary and slightly supercilious)
The batteries as pets refers to the use, much like keeping a cattle dog as a pet. The battery is designed to work between 50% SOC and 100% soc or 14.4/8v and 12v, depending on the type of lead acid as to the end of boost voltage. If you only use a bit of that capacity then it is much like feeding the cattle dog but it not actually doing any work, a pet. There is no value at all in carrying around extra battery storage that you are never going to use. There is no financial logic in carrying around 2 x 120Ah batteries that might last for 6 yrs when a single 120Ah battery will still provide the energy storage and maybe only last for 3 yrs..... every 3 yrs you have a fresh battery and you have saved 30 kg or more in weight and gained a bit of room.
It might hurt to be told you are wasting money with the set up you have now by treating your batteries as pets, but often the truth can be a tad painful
T1 Terry
jules47 said
02:07 PM Nov 8, 2017
Thanks for the reply Terry - how else are we supposed to use our batteries other than do what we need to do in the motorhome? They do what we need, we are not left in the dark at 7pm, had them for over six years - so for sure the money spent on them and the solar has been recouped by now? As too the weight, we are fine weightwise, plus they are in a spot which we wouldn't use for anything else.
Not very technical.
rockylizard said
01:42 PM Nov 9, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
You certainly don't use the batteries much if they have never been below 12.4v over night after rainy weather and they are now 6 1/2 yrs old. I'd suggest a capacity test but when they fell over I'd be blamed for their death, not that they were dead already you just hadn't seen the signs.
Lithium batteries are for those who use their batteries, not keep them as pets. ~~~SNIP
T1 Terry
Gday...
I am a bit confused by your advice/comments, Terry.
Are you suggesting that using an AGM battery down to only 12.4V overnight is "keeping them as pets" because "The battery is designed to work between 50% SOC and 100% soc or 14.4/8v and 12v."
I had been told that 100% SOC is actually 12.7V - ie 14.4V is at either bulk or absorption charge and 13.4V at float (100%) and dropping to 12.7V (100%) when charge ceases - eg sun disappears.
I was provided with this chart some time ago to use to have some idea of 'acceptable' SOC of AGM battery.
That chart indicates that an AGM being drawn down to 50% (12.06V) is into the area of 'caution'.
However, 12.4V which is down to where my battery is usually drawn by my overnight usage, is 80% SOC.
One would have thought that drawing down to 80% and then returning to 13.4V float (through bulk/absorption charge) by late morning, then sitting at 12.7V at sunset and drawing down to 80% (12.4V) after overnight usage would have been a good usage of that battery ... and for its longevity.
Am I, and others who have given me that advice, incorrect?
If so, why ... and please use lay-person terms as I am definitely not in anyway 'electrically inclined' - I just try to respond to, and utilise, advice gained from those who have greater knowledge/experience/training/qualifications.
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Friday 10th of November 2017 08:42:56 AM
T1 Terry said
03:50 PM Nov 28, 2017
Think I'd believe the manufacturer rather than a battery reseller, http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/DC120-12B.pdf first chart on the right hand side, 6 amp discharge line is close enough to a C20 discharge rate, it gets much worse at a higher rate as you will see from the chart. Start voltage is 13v, at around the 10hr mark or 50% of a 20hr discharge, the line crosses the 12v mark. To me that says fully charged is 12.8v or better and 50% SOC is 12v.
As far the voltages and SOC for LiFeP04 batteries, who ever gave you those figures hasn't got a clue, you can not gauge an LFP or LYP battery SOC from terminal voltage over 4 cells, only fully charged or fully discharged by individual cell voltages. 0% SOC can still be better than 3v per cell in an LFP or LYP cell so 4 perfectly even cells would add up to 12v or more yet the full 100% of the advertised capacity had been used. An LFP or LYP cell should never be discharged lower than 2.8v but that is not the same as 0% SOC, it does mean the cell is now totally drained of all its capacity though and tat could mean more than the advertised capacity has been drained from the cell....... a whole different world to lead acid technology, the only thing they have in common is 13.8v represents approx. fully charged for a 12v battery, but that goes the same for both lead acid and LFP/LYP batteries, only the cell voltage tell the tale for Li and specific gravity for lead acid
T1 Terry
rockylizard said
04:17 PM Nov 28, 2017
Gday...
Thanks Terry, that is helpful.
From the chart you provide from that website, you suggest - "To me that says fully charged is 12.8v or better and 50% SOC is 12v"
I reckon that looks pretty much in agreement with the battery manufacturer's "customer guide" chart I posted earlier, given to me by a battery retailer which also shows ....
12.7V = 100%
12.06V = 50%
And thanks for the interesting techno jargon about the LifePO4 batteries ... but to be frank, it doesn't matter a rat's wrinkle to me ... I am not interested in LifePO4.
As I said before - "I reckon I am more likely to expire before AGMs do, so I would reckon I don't have enough time to recoup the investment into lithium.
So, given all that, converting to a lithium system, despite its excellent capabilities for heavy power users, is just not worth it to me."
Cheers - and thanks agen - John
T1 Terry said
12:35 PM Nov 29, 2017
As far as the 12.7v being 100% SOC for an AGM battery, can't agree and neither does the manufacturer if you check the chart, they start at 13v, after 1 hr @ a constant 6 amp load it looks to be somewhere around the 12.7v mark but that means 6Ah have been drawn from the 100Ah battery, so to me that indicates 12.7v represents around 94% charged (100 - 6 = 94)
As far as the 12.06v representing a caution voltage, no idea if this is while under the 6 amp load or rested and the manufacturers battery battery chart doesn't mention it either so......
The whole thing about only discharging to 12.4v for a longer life has me a little puzzled, are you actually drawing 20Ah @ 6 amps from each 100Ah battery or is this just a guestimation based on a voltage test... again, rested or under load? What I'm saying is, if you are only drawing a total of 40Ah over night then why use 2 batteries? A good 100Ah AGM battery should provide 40Ah over night if the load is only 6 amps max and do that for 600 cycles (600 over night discharges) which would equal quite a few yrs of ownership. So where is the value in 2 batteries doing the job one battery should be able to do without a problem? Twice the purchase price, twice the weight and twice the space taken up..... how much will it cost to replace the two batteries when the time comes to replace them?
T1 Terry
Peter_n_Margaret said
05:56 PM Nov 29, 2017
Folks, you will need to make allowances for Terry. He is in the business of selling and installing LiFeO4 battery systems, so he is not remotely impartial in this discussion. He is a salesman and takes a salesman's perspective. Like many others, I use AGM batteries for a largely electric motorhome. My current set are 8 years old in January. If someday I remove our gas cooking and replace it with induction then I may well look at Li too, but the most significant part of that change would be more solar and a larger inverter, but until then, AGMs will do the job admirably and at a fraction of the replacement costs of Li.
ps Terry.... since you are using the Fullriver data to your own advantage, where does it say anything about not taking them below 50%? And... a 6A constant average load is way over what most users would be typically wanting from a 100Ah battery of any kind in an RV.
Cheers, Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Wednesday 29th of November 2017 05:57:16 PM
rockylizard said
08:59 AM Nov 30, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
As far as the 12.7v being 100% SOC for an AGM battery, can't agree and neither does the manufacturer if you check the chart, they start at 13v, after 1 hr @ a constant 6 amp load it looks to be somewhere around the 12.7v mark but that means 6Ah have been drawn from the 100Ah battery, so to me that indicates 12.7v represents around 94% charged (100 - 6 = 94) As far as the 12.06v representing a caution voltage, no idea if this is while under the 6 amp load or rested and the manufacturers battery battery chart doesn't mention it either so......
The whole thing about only discharging to 12.4v for a longer life has me a little puzzled, are you actually drawing 20Ah @ 6 amps from each 100Ah battery or is this just a guestimation based on a voltage test... again, rested or under load? What I'm saying is, if you are only drawing a total of 40Ah over night then why use 2 batteries? A good 100Ah AGM battery should provide 40Ah over night if the load is only 6 amps max and do that for 600 cycles (600 over night discharges) which would equal quite a few yrs of ownership. So where is the value in 2 batteries doing the job one battery should be able to do without a problem? Twice the purchase price, twice the weight and twice the space taken up..... how much will it cost to replace the two batteries when the time comes to replace them?
T1 Terry
Gday...
Jest sayin' Terry. Ya gotta get to actually reading, understanding and retaining what posters say before you begin your torrent of advice.
I have only ONE 120Ahr AGM and my 4 to 5 hours of power usage overnight reduces my ONE 120Ahr battery from 12.7V SOC as shown on solar controller to around 12.4V SOC when I rub the sleep from my peepers about 6.30am of a morning.
My solar panels then restore the battery to a float charge of 13.4 (through bulk and absorption) before lunchtime ... which they hold the battery at until the suns sinks slowly in the west . This has now been happening with boring repetition for about six years now.
I am fully aware you are deeply involved in Lithium sales, installation and service ... but if you want to maintain a credible reputation as an adviser on "all" battery systems, you need to temper how you read and interpret what users already have and need ... and then tailor your advice to what their ACTUAL needs/requirements are rather than your opinion (and potential cashflow requirements) thinks they should have.
Cheers - and thanks agen - John
Aus-Kiwi said
09:30 AM Nov 30, 2017
It added a few cheap extra solar cells on top of the two 120 watt panels and added another 120 AH battery to make a total of 360 AH . We have to have at least two cloudy days before battery voltage drops . Adding a 40 amp charger to generator has helped . Yes we boil the jug two or three times a day . Yes the charger comes on the same time . We have gas to heat water if required at night for quietness etc . But using a little diesel to operate generator is not an issue . Strange how at times battery usage is high or at times the solar just doesnât keep up ? Not always cloudy days ?? Yes batteries are usually on float ( green light flashing ) by 10.30 am . Found a few appliances where fed off motor battery . Switched. Them over to house and added a voltage sensitive relay between the two . Never had and problems ., btw Motorhome . 5kw Onan generator .
T1 Terry said
10:28 AM Nov 30, 2017
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Folks, you will need to make allowances for Terry. He is in the business of selling and installing LiFeO4 battery systems, so he is not remotely impartial in this discussion. He is a salesman and takes a salesman's perspective. Like many others, I use AGM batteries for a largely electric motorhome. My current set are 8 years old in January. If someday I remove our gas cooking and replace it with induction then I may well look at Li too, but the most significant part of that change would be more solar and a larger inverter, but until then, AGMs will do the job admirably and at a fraction of the replacement costs of Li.
ps Terry.... since you are using the Fullriver data to your own advantage, where does it say anything about not taking them below 50%? And... a 6A constant average load is way over what most users would be typically wanting from a 100Ah battery of any kind in an RV.
Cheers, Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Wednesday 29th of November 2017 05:57:16 PM
:lol: No money in it for me unfortunately Peter, wife's business and I don't even get paid. As far as a lithium salesman, lithium done properly is my passion, but there are a lot more $$ to be made fixing lithium systems not done properly and heaps more in house battery back up and off grid than RV installs I can assure you.
As far as downloading the info you requested from Fullriver, the NBN is so slow here I think it's sucking info out of my 'puter rather than uploading any PDF documents, I think a letter delivered by Aust post would be faster and that's really saying something
Talking to a coupla Solar installers doing a home up oyr srtreet.
(60% here have Solar on roof now.)
We were talking panels. Longevity. reliability.
Change in SOME of the Chinese equipment (For the better in some cases).
Also we were talking battery packs for home. (Smaller for vans, M\Homes etc.)
They sell the TESLA packs. but he was saying same as me.
Wait a coupla yrs. These newer Liquid content ones are THE next gen.
IN capacity and electrical power. At a fraction of price.
Also these new Hybrid Inv Battery pack\grid units will be better for home systems.
Ergon are even controlling the inverter output to Grid and home.
at certain times now too.
According to what THEY require. From "0" to whatever. regardless of what YOU generating.
We only have the one supplier. NO Competition. Just Gov\t V Gov\t.
A coupla you Solar clued ones should chat to s few installers. Get the gist of it
Remember it (I don't) and pass it on here. hey.
A bit more information regarding "These newer Liquid content ones are THE next gen." If you are referring to the Redflow zinc-bromine flow batteries they are hardly "THE next generation"as they have had more come backs than John Farnham since the initial birth back in 1967. If you are talking about the salt water batteries by Aquion, they have gone to the wall and are in the receivers hands at the moment, so you might be waiting for quite a while. Talk is that this one of those corporate attacks much like Myers are going through at the moment, but who knows. Unless they get the brains behind the idea, Jay Whitacre, back on board the whole thing will end up in the recycle bin.
There is absolutely nothing out there that can compete with lithium at the moment and as far as $$ wise and cycle life nothing competes with LYP in the lithium stakes.
It is very hard to talk to anyone who is really up to speed on this stuff because the marketing mobs are in full spin mode at the moment. We don't need to carry on with this nonsense cause we are as busy as a one armed wall paper hanger and advanced booked till next yr.
We are installing a full off grid system out in Crystal Brook next week, the house is on the grid and has solar feed in but this system will be separate. It is designed to power his fridges and freezers primarily and what ever else in the house it can handle while the weather is good. This way they maximise the feed in from their present system and get a reliable power supply for the fridges and freezers so they don't defrost and waste all the contents.
As far as battery backed feed into the grid, you'd need rocks in ya head to even consider it. Why would you pay out all that money and have the responsibility of maintenance and replacement as required to supply the grid with power cheap when the generators are asking for the big $$?
If you already have a good feed in tariff, don't mess with it, just install an off grid system to run part of the house that needs a permanent power supply and switch the other parts between the off grid and grid depending on how well the battery pack/solar is going. Pays for itself in increased income from the grid feed in stuff. and you get a reliable supply and cheaper power as a bonus
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Wednesday 1st of November 2017 02:54:24 PM
Dibs
Good on you mateeeeeeeeeeeee
Terry. The pricing of these Lif4po? whatever.
I think people will be using Wet and AGM cells for a lot more yrs yet.
Only people with more than a few bucks to spare
and battery freaks (Like me with my torches and fishing gear)
would really go far down that road.
Till pricing comes into parity with normal ones.
$800+ plus an AGM to boost it?. PER battery?
IF the weights of battery\s in your rig give a person problems.
He has bigger problems to worry about than that..
Latest technology is fine. Just let somebody else practice on it. I reckon.
-- Edited by macka17 on Thursday 2nd of November 2017 09:19:41 PM
Ummm.... no mention of the "liquid content battery" or a link Macka?
Quote
They sell the TESLA packs. but he was saying same as me.
Wait a coupla yrs. These newer Liquid content ones are THE next gen.
IN capacity and electrical power. At a fraction of price.
If you are gunna talk the talk you need to be able to back it up. After installing more than 200 systems for off grid use I know my side of it, so let's here your side of it
T1 Terry
MY side..
Hnmmm.
Just a USER for 40 yrs and taking note of what the tradies tell me when they doing such.
A man can't do much more than that. When he Mechanical not electric orientated.
PS I always said I was near 0 when it comes to fancy figures in things electrical.
I'm Just the practical side of things..
I'm VERY good an old, dozer dragline or yacht though.
Everybody to their own hey.
I'm just talking several Professionals talk Information passed TO ME, in conversations. is all.
Last one was an A class electronics tech so should know a little?. He designed and installed
(Part owner)
Who IS right. Will eventuate eventually.
Same a panels and normal battery's
I install Battery's to suit what I need then top up on panels til it floats at MY requirements.
As a lot do.
Plus. some can't afford all in one hit.
I can guarantee one thing though.
Those Lifpo4? whatever battery's will NOT eventuate for the normal working man
for a LOOONG time. if ever.
Bit like a Lambo, and a Falcon. Not everything is for everybody.
You happy with what you sell and pushing. Most are happy with what there is for a long while yet.
Enjoy them. At $800ish a pop. NOT too many have them on their list. regardless of what some say they will do.
Bit less crap in van. Plenty of room for AGM's (weight) anyway hey.
PS. It's funny not many (only 1 I've seen yet)
Will quote on public paper. what a fixed?. certain capacity battery bank will cost. installed to suit
a system. In Dollars...(he quoted individual battery prices)
You want to?. 2 or three examples.
1 x caravan. Usual. plus Wash mach. coffee maker. Microwave etc etc.
1 x home with full household items. OFF grid.
Panels. Battery bank and install. (You reckon you've done a few now.)
Examples in Dollars would be nice. for future possible customers, from here alone.
Just a basic system no fancy what if's.???
1 23ft van. 1 x 4 bed home single storey. (or double) would be a good start point.
OR Just a battery bank for a 5kw solar system ready installed.(5 kw std system)
We can compare with Tesla then.
I'm actually in line for an OFF grid over pool deck to cover pool pumps and heaters.
Panels sorted. And also, MY reason for battery interests.
I WILL buy a bank WHEN.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 5th of November 2017 12:51:31 PM
It is reassuring to know that we can still get expert advice on this topic that is not biased or founded on untruths.
Continue the good work.
More like Baitiiiing.
macka, behave yourself. Please.
You are a bit grumpy tonight.
Cheers, John.
No John.
he keeps on about his super battery's.
I'm just wondering. basically for everybody.
How viable ARE they in real world.
do we wait for pricing to drop
or are they likely to bee too over the top for too long??.
Just interested.
I am after a bank for my Pool Off Grid at later date.
I do use Li-Ion a lot. in 18650 and 22650 sizes.
Got some 14500? on way to to replace AA cells too.
Panasonic. LG or Sony (Japan). or Soshine ,China. only.
KeepPower too exxy and only run Pana's inside anyway, as do most others.
PS. NEVER Grumpy in real life.
You wouldn't believe how laid back he is.
Just reacts to others. At times, is all.
-- Edited by macka17 on Monday 6th of November 2017 01:37:21 AM
Hi Macka, been as busy as a one armed wall paper hanger so haven't had a chance to get back on here.
Cost....... We only bulid custom systems to suit the customer because there is no such thing as drop in lithium batteries.... that actually do what they are supposed to do. Have already sorted one drop in lithium battery set up the best I could, but not possible to actually get it working perfectly but they should last a lot longer than the 7mths one of the batteries lasted.
5kW of solar and how many kWh of battery? Can't just pluck a figure out of the air or attempt to match the claims of many installers and suppliers, they quote rather rubbery figures. Take an AGM deep cycle battery set up for example, 600Ah x 24v = 7200wH or 7.2kWh.... but you can't get that 7.2kWh out of the battery and still maintain the 24v required to power the inverter, you can get half of that if you are happy to use the battery down to 50% SOC and can get it back to 100% SOC each recharge. Keep in mind that it is near impossible to get a lead acid battery back to 100%SOC while still in use..... so would there actually even be 50% of the capacity available and how long would 300Ah @ 24v remain as 50% of the capacity?
As far as battery cost, in lead acid comparison terms, $4 per Ah @ 12v nom. does that help?
As far as the cop out about only relaying what the tradies have tod you
Quote
"They sell the TESLA packs. but he was saying same as me.
Wait a coupla yrs. These newer Liquid content ones are THE next gen.
IN capacity and electrical power. At a fraction of price."
This clearly says you are the one also saying this so we need to know just what the liquid content batteries are? If you are going to make a comment like this on a forum you have to be able to back it up if you want to keep your head above liquid level that tends to pour down on anyone who makes wild claims but can't back them up
T1 Terry
Normally
The Battery KW would be whatever was needed to keep whatever load I was applying,
to above 12.4\12.5v by Daylight?. Linked to my 5kw of solar.
As you said. You have to calculate that.
But no good adding more battery than panels can load hey.
Above that. Genny input?.
So it's basically the panels that control your ON grid.
Off grid. The paddock size and no of panels controls it.
More the panels more the battery cap. But still controlled by voltages.
I Never took\take battery bank (on yachts)down below 12.4 or 12.5v. at the most.
Otherwise any battery\s will have shorter life.
Or do these lithium cells circumvent that limit.?.
-----------
The liquid storage is what they said. Not mentioning type of.
Dumb old electrics me wouldn't have understood anyway or remembered anyway..
" but he was saying same as me."".
Was just what I'd heard from other Solar operators.
incl the local ERGON crews next door. (Rog's Brother. at Barby.)
and read about battery systems\types supposedly coming on line
on some of the Solar forums I've looked at.
Whirlpool have a good selection of Installers on there. With some doing it a long time.
If your battery's are $1 per Ah. at 12v. they are a lot cheaper than the $800 per 100a battery quoted by other bloke.
Out of interest. (I am looking )
I'll send you an I.M.
These batteries have never been below 12.4 - and that is a rarity - not sure of the brand but will probably look at getting the same ones,
Having posted that - they will probably die tomorrow!
You certainly don't use the batteries much if they have never been below 12.4v over night after rainy weather and they are now 6 1/2 yrs old. I'd suggest a capacity test but when they fell over I'd be blamed for their death, not that they were dead already you just hadn't seen the signs.
Lithium batteries are for those who use their batteries, not keep them as pets. Those who spend most of their time off grid and stay away for more than a week at a time wonder how they ever got by once the changed up to lithium. Very few of them still carry their generator and slowly but surely more things accepted as comfort requirements make their way into the set up.
People as just built that way, the battery bank is similar to the wallet, you stop spending when the wallet is empty, batteries are similar so when that empty point moves up a bit the temptation to find the empty point is too great to ignore. That empty point is a long way away compared to where it was with the AGM batteries
T1 Terry
Gday...
Firstly, given the little I know, have read and heard about Lithium batteries/systems I can only agree they appear impressive.
Particularly, as you say, for those who have heavy power usage requirements, wish to camp 'off the grid' for extended periods for many years to come, then they must be worth the considerable initial outlay.
However, I have found that my AGM 'system' performs much as Jules has indicated theirs does.
I have been camping 'off the grid' for weeks at a time over the past eight years with my one 120Ahr AGM and 360W solar on the roof. My battery has not been below 12.4V at daybreak for the nearly four years it has been installed. I had a 100Ahr before that. Even on overcast days, the battery is restored to float (13.4V) by lunchtime - definitely by mid-morning in sunny weather.
I have found though that if there are three or four consecutive days of rain - I would need to get the genny out on the fourth day to 'tickle' the battery back to a 'safer' SOC. To be fair the genny has only been started once for five hours two years ago when camped on the Murrumbidgee.
I admit I am a light user of power. I have LEDs throughout the van and if I only use one of two of them with just the radio and laptop for about four hours of a night, the battery doesn't get below 12.6V at daybreak. If I use the TV for two hours on the occasional night, that is when I see 12.4V at daybreak. The fridge runs on gas, I cook on the campfire or gas in van.
I don't think my batteries are "kept as pets"
it is just that I don't use much power and the solar keeps the battery in good nick.
I reckon I am more likely to expire before the AGMs do
so I would find I don't have enough time to recoup the investment into lithium.
So, given all that, converting to a lithium system, despite its capabilities, is just not worth it to me.
Cheers - John
We have no need for coffee makers, constant hot water, toaster, or air conditioners, or electric blankets or ovens.
If we get bad weather for a couple of days - we put the genny on.
Our batteries are not pets, they make our lifestyle possible, and we take care of them. I agree with RL - not worth it to us, good though we hear the system is.
As someone a long time ago said to me - if it ain't broke, don't "fix" it!
(ps - I thought your remark saying our batteries are "pets" was quite unnecessary and slightly supercilious)
I read your comments with interest John, your experience almost mirrors ours. We have two 120ah Full Rivers that have been installed for two years fed by 400w roof panels. The batteries have never gone below 12.4 to my knowledge. As for Lithium batteries I have no doubt that they are much better for extended bush sojourns but, as we only spend at most three to four days doing this the Lithium's would not benefit us much from a cost point of view.
Many thanks Terry for your informative post on this subject.
-- Edited by Magnarc on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 02:24:49 PM
My primary system is a 100ah x 24v lithium with 1 kw of solar charge. This is marginal to keep ahead of my all electric camper using a 3kw LF inverter. A further 100ah is planned. This does all cooking and refrigeration at 240v and all low power devices are 12v through dc-dc inverters. I have a single burner gas cartridge stove for backup. Most cooking is done on a 800w frypan and hot water with a 700w Birko jug.
When capacity testing the lithiums they boil the birko for hours.
My secondary system is a 12v LA pack of various 100ah batteries in parallel fed by 500w 0f 24v panels all feeding a 1.3kw LF inverter for 240v. This will just hang in long enough to boil the birko. Take one of the batteries out of the pack and voltage droop under load drops the inverter off before it boils.
This illustrates the vital differences between the two chemistries. For heavy long loads, lithium wins. If loads are more moderate, LA is sufficient and much cheaper initially.
Caravans set up with gas to cook and refrigerate essentially have no heavy electrical loads to service and the present system is wonderful. Swap out the gas frige for a compressor frige of any type and the electricity demand goes up a lot, well in excess of what a 100ah LA can supply. And so the merry-go-round begins.
"The difficult is easy, the impossible merely takes a little longer.
These days, EVERYTHING takes a little longer"
The batteries as pets refers to the use, much like keeping a cattle dog as a pet. The battery is designed to work between 50% SOC and 100% soc or 14.4/8v and 12v, depending on the type of lead acid as to the end of boost voltage. If you only use a bit of that capacity then it is much like feeding the cattle dog but it not actually doing any work, a pet. There is no value at all in carrying around extra battery storage that you are never going to use. There is no financial logic in carrying around 2 x 120Ah batteries that might last for 6 yrs when a single 120Ah battery will still provide the energy storage and maybe only last for 3 yrs..... every 3 yrs you have a fresh battery and you have saved 30 kg or more in weight and gained a bit of room.
It might hurt to be told you are wasting money with the set up you have now by treating your batteries as pets, but often the truth can be a tad painful
T1 Terry
Not very technical.
Gday...
I am a bit confused by your advice/comments, Terry.
Are you suggesting that using an AGM battery down to only 12.4V overnight is "keeping them as pets" because "The battery is designed to work between 50% SOC and 100% soc or 14.4/8v and 12v."
I had been told that 100% SOC is actually 12.7V - ie 14.4V is at either bulk or absorption charge and 13.4V at float (100%) and dropping to 12.7V (100%) when charge ceases - eg sun disappears.
I was provided with this chart some time ago to use to have some idea of 'acceptable' SOC of AGM battery.
That chart indicates that an AGM being drawn down to 50% (12.06V) is into the area of 'caution'.
However, 12.4V which is down to where my battery is usually drawn by my overnight usage, is 80% SOC.
One would have thought that drawing down to 80% and then returning to 13.4V float (through bulk/absorption charge) by late morning, then sitting at 12.7V at sunset and drawing down to 80% (12.4V) after overnight usage would have been a good usage of that battery ... and for its longevity.
Am I, and others who have given me that advice, incorrect?
If so, why ... and please use lay-person terms as I am definitely not in anyway 'electrically inclined' - I just try to respond to, and utilise, advice gained from those who have greater knowledge/experience/training/qualifications.
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Friday 10th of November 2017 08:42:56 AM
Think I'd believe the manufacturer rather than a battery reseller, http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/DC120-12B.pdf first chart on the right hand side, 6 amp discharge line is close enough to a C20 discharge rate, it gets much worse at a higher rate as you will see from the chart. Start voltage is 13v, at around the 10hr mark or 50% of a 20hr discharge, the line crosses the 12v mark. To me that says fully charged is 12.8v or better and 50% SOC is 12v.
As far the voltages and SOC for LiFeP04 batteries, who ever gave you those figures hasn't got a clue, you can not gauge an LFP or LYP battery SOC from terminal voltage over 4 cells, only fully charged or fully discharged by individual cell voltages. 0% SOC can still be better than 3v per cell in an LFP or LYP cell so 4 perfectly even cells would add up to 12v or more yet the full 100% of the advertised capacity had been used. An LFP or LYP cell should never be discharged lower than 2.8v but that is not the same as 0% SOC, it does mean the cell is now totally drained of all its capacity though and tat could mean more than the advertised capacity has been drained from the cell....... a whole different world to lead acid technology, the only thing they have in common is 13.8v represents approx. fully charged for a 12v battery, but that goes the same for both lead acid and LFP/LYP batteries, only the cell voltage tell the tale for Li and specific gravity for lead acid
T1 Terry
Gday...
Thanks Terry, that is helpful.
From the chart you provide from that website, you suggest - "To me that says fully charged is 12.8v or better and 50% SOC is 12v"
I reckon that looks pretty much in agreement with the battery manufacturer's "customer guide" chart I posted earlier, given to me by a battery retailer which also shows ....
And thanks for the interesting techno jargon about the LifePO4 batteries ... but to be frank, it doesn't matter a rat's wrinkle to me ... I am not interested in LifePO4.
As I said before - "I reckon I am more likely to expire before AGMs do, so I would reckon I don't have enough time to recoup the investment into lithium.
So, given all that, converting to a lithium system, despite its excellent capabilities for heavy power users, is just not worth it to me."
Cheers - and thanks agen - John
As far as the 12.06v representing a caution voltage, no idea if this is while under the 6 amp load or rested and the manufacturers battery battery chart doesn't mention it either so......
The whole thing about only discharging to 12.4v for a longer life has me a little puzzled, are you actually drawing 20Ah @ 6 amps from each 100Ah battery or is this just a guestimation based on a voltage test... again, rested or under load? What I'm saying is, if you are only drawing a total of 40Ah over night then why use 2 batteries? A good 100Ah AGM battery should provide 40Ah over night if the load is only 6 amps max and do that for 600 cycles (600 over night discharges) which would equal quite a few yrs of ownership. So where is the value in 2 batteries doing the job one battery should be able to do without a problem? Twice the purchase price, twice the weight and twice the space taken up..... how much will it cost to replace the two batteries when the time comes to replace them?
T1 Terry
Folks, you will need to make allowances for Terry. He is in the business of selling and installing LiFeO4 battery systems, so he is not remotely impartial in this discussion. He is a salesman and takes a salesman's perspective.
Like many others, I use AGM batteries for a largely electric motorhome. My current set are 8 years old in January.
If someday I remove our gas cooking and replace it with induction then I may well look at Li too, but the most significant part of that change would be more solar and a larger inverter, but until then, AGMs will do the job admirably and at a fraction of the replacement costs of Li.
ps Terry.... since you are using the Fullriver data to your own advantage, where does it say anything about not taking them below 50%?
And... a 6A constant average load is way over what most users would be typically wanting from a 100Ah battery of any kind in an RV.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Wednesday 29th of November 2017 05:57:16 PM
Gday...
Jest sayin' Terry. Ya gotta get to actually reading, understanding and retaining what posters say before you begin your torrent of advice.
I have only ONE 120Ahr AGM and my 4 to 5 hours of power usage overnight reduces my ONE 120Ahr battery from 12.7V SOC as shown on solar controller to around 12.4V SOC when I rub the sleep from my peepers about 6.30am of a morning.
My solar panels then restore the battery to a float charge of 13.4 (through bulk and absorption) before lunchtime ... which they hold the battery at until the suns sinks slowly in the west . This has now been happening with boring repetition for about six years now.
I am fully aware you are deeply involved in Lithium sales, installation and service ... but if you want to maintain a credible reputation as an adviser on "all" battery systems, you need to temper how you read and interpret what users already have and need ... and then tailor your advice to what their ACTUAL needs/requirements are rather than your opinion (and potential cashflow requirements) thinks they should have.
Cheers - and thanks agen - John
:lol: No money in it for me unfortunately Peter, wife's business and I don't even get paid. As far as a lithium salesman, lithium done properly is my passion, but there are a lot more $$ to be made fixing lithium systems not done properly and heaps more in house battery back up and off grid than RV installs I can assure you.
As far as downloading the info you requested from Fullriver, the NBN is so slow here I think it's sucking info out of my 'puter rather than uploading any PDF documents, I think a letter delivered by Aust post would be faster and that's really saying something
T1 Terry