Enjoying the forums and can see how helpful and fun everyone is. Terrific.
I was wondering if anyone had purchased Lithium batteries to use as house batteries in a caravan or motorhome. Ours collapses after working on corregated roads these last few months and want a robust solution. Hubby keen to spend the money on Lithium. I am not so sure it is worth it. Hoping for helpful experience to shine through. brands? Sizes? Issues? Advantages?
PeterInSa said
05:16 PM Oct 30, 2016
My experience is with 36v 10amp e-bike batteries. After purchase left it on the e-bike battery charger which is an intelligent charger ( I am told) used the e-bike a number of times charging up after use, sometimes on charge for a month or so after. Battery now kaput. Told by another e-bike seller recently if the e-bike not in use for any time, charge the battery up, disconnect the charger and charge up again in 6 weeks time ( I understand the Lithioum battery self discharges at 5% a month). This company has a sticker on their e-bike batteries to this effect ( 6 week charge)and they told me Lithium or LioPo4 ( whateever) does not like overcharging.
Have a $1200 odd Lithium battery for my inflatable boat that is similar to a house battery and I treated in a similar fashion but not connected to a charger but in parallel with an AGM battery and charged by Sola, have not tried it out in my boat for a while so fingers crossed.
I personally would not purchase a lithium house battery for a caravan or motor home, because I think the body of knowledge on use and charging is still in the early days. For both the above over the past 3 years I have received various comments about charge/discharge/use cycle, the one I believe most is that the Lithium batteries last longest on an ebike if the bike is used and charged every day. To me the use and charge concept does not fit with House/boat batteries. If your caravan is not is use for x months do you want to do the 6 weeks charge/disconnect cycle.
I recently attended and RPA ( Remote Pilotted Aircraft/Drone) seminar and recall that they use lithioum batteries with smart chargers and from memory use similar charge methods to the e-bike seller above ie they do not leave the battery connected to a smart charger all the time.
Note I am not a lithium battery specialist and others more knowledgeable/experience may disagree with my comments.
Peter
Dougwe said
06:38 PM Oct 30, 2016
Welcome to the gang Michelle, enjoy here and out in the playground.
Maybe you could take a look at the 'Solar Power' sub forum just above here, heaps of good info there. You could also do a seach for Littium Batteries in the 'seach' bar just above the list of sections.
Keep Safe on the roads and out there.
Brenda and Alan said
07:50 PM Oct 30, 2016
Please note there are several different types of chemistry that use lithium as a component. The model plane and ebike batteries are lithium ion and/or lithium polymer and have a very high charge density and are not suitable as house batteries. They also pose a fire risk if mishandled.
The lithium batteries used for caravans are lithium/iron/phosphate commonly known as LiFePo4. Totally different chemistry and well understood in the role of house batteries.
We have been using a lithium battery now for 3 years and are very happy with its performance, but they are expensive so are best suited for regular usage rather than occasional trips.
Alan
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Sunday 30th of October 2016 07:51:19 PM
T1 Terry said
11:16 PM Oct 30, 2016
I have used them 24/7 for over 5 yrs and they are still going strong, had a hand in fitting up around 200 RV systems including a number that are used as the house when gold prospecting and they don't actually stay on the bitumen :lol: They will handle bouncing around but generally the wiring won't and often the other electrical equipment falls apart, so it all needs to be well mounted, but a corrugated road will not shake the guts out of the lithium cells.
I'm not trying to do a plug for myself here but I want to be open and up front, I do install lithium and solar systems.... and I have seen some rather suspect installs just lately too, so be very careful as there are a lot of new players out there trying to jump on the lithium band wagon without really knowing what they are doing.
T1 Terry
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:36 AM Oct 31, 2016
MichelleWilliams wrote:
I was wondering if anyone had purchased Lithium batteries to use as house batteries in a caravan or motorhome. Ours collapses after working on corregated roads these last few months and want a robust solution. Hubby keen to spend the money on Lithium. I am not so sure it is worth it. Hoping for helpful experience to shine through. brands? Sizes? Issues? Advantages?
Li have advantages in weight and the ability to deliver high currents for big appliances. They are a big investment.
There is no evidence that they withstand corrugations any better than AGMs. Both Lis and AGMs will seriously outperform wet cells on vibrations.
Our OKA spends most of its life off the bitumen. the first 2 crank batteries were wet cells. They lasted 2 years and 3 years respectively until I installed an AGM crank battery which is now coming up 7 years old and going well. Our Fullriver AGM house batteries likewise have survived the corrugations without issue.
Cheers,
Peter
macka17 said
05:02 PM Oct 31, 2016
You want battery's for corrugations and rough.
The old "CAT" battery's, and the blue label?? ones we used on dozers and track
loaders.
get more thrashing in a coupla days than a tyre mounted battery of any type
would get in a month. Believe me.
They are wet cells and designed for real rough work
I used to operate an old Cat 9 dozer with a "Kelly Bar" on arse.
A kelly is a single shank ripper, used for breaking out rock seams.
12/15 hr shifts. ripping rock.
Still started after lunch and next morn.
and my wet cells coupled to panels regularly give 5 to 7 yrs. normally mid 6.
Who needs more.
AGM are heavier and twice the price. Not much more life to them.
Theses Lithium are just ridiculous till technology a lot older and sensible priced..
If a person needs to buy lightweight battery's on his mobile rig for limits..
He NEEDS to look seriously at his weights elsewhere first.
Far too many carry far too much weight and far too big rigs,
for their cars capacity's.
These Lithiums at present are more the bigger dick syndrome,
in real life.
mr glassies said
05:13 PM Oct 31, 2016
Well macka I must have a big d}#k because I have lithium 400 amps to be exact .I have never weighed cat batteries or any other heavy machinery ones for that matter . But I recon they would go close to overloading a van . Obviously you don't know much about how lithium so work . From what I have seen even some of the big time installers haven't got there smarts about them yet . If there done properly you get years more out of them and cane use more things in your van
Dibs
Retiredatlast said
07:21 PM Oct 31, 2016
HI
Just remember they are still causing fires on scooters and other things. Maybe mobile phones too. They hold a good charge for their size so if they short out thats what you get is a fire. Some airlines want them banned.
Its new technology so let them iron out the bugs first and you will sleep better.
Dav4Cris said
07:34 PM Oct 31, 2016
Retiredatlast wrote:
HI
Just remember they are still causing fires on scooters and other things. Maybe mobile phones too. They hold a good charge for their size so if they short out thats what you get is a fire. Some airlines want them banned.
Its new technology so let them iron out the bugs first and you will sleep better.
Wish people would do the research before commenting, all the Lipo batteries that catch fire are just that Lipo batteries, where those being installed in all RV's are LiFe04 batteries which do not catch fire. Yes they are both Lithium but one is in models and scooters while the others are in Golf carts and RV's no fires !!!
PeterInSa said
09:22 PM Oct 31, 2016
I recently visited our E-bike importer in another state to discuss the problem with our LiFePO4 battery, I cannot recall if these are the polymer batteries or not, ( have been told that polymer are not the best option) he had at least another 10 of these LiFeP04 batteries that he could not charge up from over the years he had been in business. At no time did he mention any fire problem. I understand that there are people in Oz that can replace the faulty cells in the e-bike batteries..
Brenda and Alan said
05:08 PM Nov 1, 2016
PeterInSa could you check your ebike battery for type as all batteries that I can find on the net are NOT LiFePo4 but are lithium-ion batteries which are totally different chemistry.
Alan
macka17 said
05:19 PM Nov 1, 2016
They the same as all new technologies. Could??? be good.
But let somebody else find out first hey.
No different to buying new car. NEVER buy first (mk 1) model of anything.
Get the bugs out of that one first.
Mk 2 in 99% of cases. will be a much better purchase
Battery's exactly the same..
The price of them. for a "battery" hmm.
Much better spending money on a Genny I reckon.
Waaaay more useful.
I think I'd rather wait and see where this other fuel type technology goes.
We KNOW our battery's last for 7 yrs and more now. 10+ for good ones
I still reckon it's a bigger d--k syndrome myself.
A Battery is a Battery, no matter the size.
and who wants all that household crap in a van anyway.
The idea (as far as I know) has always been to get away from that
MOST of us spend a lot of time. reducing the load carried.
PeterInSa said
06:24 PM Nov 1, 2016
I understand my battery is a LiFeP04, have also had advice from another e-bike importer and here is a write up from their website.. see Types of Batteries section.
Obvious many have no knowledge of LiFePo4 or have vested interests.
I will try and explain my view as a person who has used the technology for over 5 years in my motorhome
LiFePo4 are really mainly an option for people who use their rigs full time or people who want /need the little things that make life more enjoyable.
When comparing price of batteries compare the usable AH of your battery and work on that. !00AH wet AGM will normally supply 50AH so divide the cost by 50 LiFePo4 give 80Ah so divide by 80.
Some rough figures on the differences but some will disagree but I think I am in the ball park.
AGM recommended 50% discharge and then have to recharge to 100% for extended life. The more times you go below 50% and the more they dont get returned to 100% the shorter the life expectancy.
LiFePo4 recommended to at least 80% discharge and no need to fully charged, actually better if it never gets to 100%.
LiFePo4 has a lot faster charge rate as they will take all the charge from your solar or charger available where as wet cells taper off from about 70% to nearly nothing by the time they are 90%. Also wet cells have a recommended Max charge where as LiFePo4 will take all you can give.
LiFePo4 will deliver high loads and keep voltage, usually above 13v, where a wet cell does not like heavy loads and very quickly drops its voltage, the experts can explain Puckett for you but basically LiFePo4 will give similar AH whether high or low load where a wet cell will drastically reduce the available AH depending on the load. High load less AH.
A 100AH LiFePo4 will deliver the full 80AH from full to 20% irrespective of the load, wet cells drastically drop their available AH in comparison to the load you apply, higher the load less power available.
There is various options for installing LiFePo4.
1. Buy your cells and set them up your self.
Can be done if you have researched various forums and able to sort the wheat from the chaff , but be aware there is a lot of BS mixed in from people with none or very little experience the same as is being shared on this thread already. This is the cheapest option.
2. Buy the drop in and pay big bucks and time will tell whether they know what they are doing.
3. Get someone with the experience to do the install for you. This perhaps is the most expensive option but you will / should get your rig setup for LiFePo4 and you will not have the problems the first two options will / may give.
Personally I have had my bus powered by LifePo4 for over 5 years and used 24/7 12 months of the year and now in the process of installing them in my house boat.
I am not worried one way or the other what people have. If you like the candle for light and struggle with limited power or need to run a genni all the time so be it.
I prefer to have the ability to cook a good meal when I want, have a good coffee at the flick of a switch and enjoy aircon in the summer and a hot shower all supplied from my batteries and the solar. I have no gas on board at all for the full 5 years I have owned the bus and will soon be the same on the house boat.
It is my life and my money and it is my choice the same as all on here have the same choice in their own life styles.
I hope that gives those interested a un technical explanation to help decide what they want.
I normally give info like this only by PM but thought I would try just once more on this forum and see what happens
aussie_paul said
07:09 PM Nov 1, 2016
Thanks beiffe, appreciated.
Aussie Paul.
macka17 said
09:22 PM Nov 1, 2016
Sounds good.But what does it cost to install say.
your system. complete.
A lot of us live/lived for yrs with wet/AGM batt's. panels and genny for aircond
quite happily.
apart from Aircond. a lot run everything on the other battery's.
Mine never went below 12.6v by sunrise.and back to 13+ v by mid day.
Having the battery power and panels to suit.
Genny I have anyway for home and boat so that don't count really.
I'd like to hear what a full system. Installed. as yours.
actually costs and what it's capacity is.
why don't you and T1 tell us. in dollars.
is it practical,
or much like a Bentley driving round with the Falcons.
I'd say a lot here would be interested.
Lots of talk about it. but none of the actual costing of.
Makes a man wonder a little. Cynisism... Maybe.
Wondering. Yes.
What DO they cost for an average, 6 mtr ? van.
to work.
Dunnp said
10:47 PM Nov 1, 2016
We have a 19' off-road van & did a 200AH LiFePo4 system for about $1800 for the four cells and management and cell balancing system. No labour, just parts. Did a lot of research first to ensure solar regulators and charger had suitable voltage characteristics. Mostly Victron and Ctek stuff - that added quite a bit, but no more than for an equivalent AGM setup.
Only had system for a year but very happy so far. Deepest discharge 179AH (ie close to 10% SoC) in really bad weather but they recharged back to 100% in a few hours when we moved to a powered site. One thing: a voltmeter is useless for checking state of charge because they hardly move off 13.2V until almost flat. Need a monitor like a Victron BMV700 ($200-odd).
Phil
beiffe said
10:53 PM Nov 1, 2016
Bit like how long is a length of string.
AH usable, not a lot of difference if compared to AGM's for the actual batteries with DIY, just you need to know what you are doing
PeterInSa said
09:59 AM Nov 2, 2016
Phil, Re (did a 200AH LiFePo4 system for about $1800 for the four cells and management and cell balancing system. No labour, just parts.)
Appreciate it if you could give me/us a list of parts/model numbers including the monitor via the forum or PM me.
Thnaks
Peter
T1 Terry said
11:03 AM Nov 2, 2016
macka17 wrote:
Sounds good.But what does it cost to install say. your system. complete. A lot of us live/lived for yrs with wet/AGM batt's. panels and genny for aircond quite happily. apart from Aircond. a lot run everything on the other battery's. Mine never went below 12.6v by sunrise.and back to 13+ v by mid day. Having the battery power and panels to suit. Genny I have anyway for home and boat so that don't count really. I'd like to hear what a full system. Installed. as yours. actually costs and what it's capacity is.
why don't you and T1 tell us. in dollars. is it practical, or much like a Bentley driving round with the Falcons. I'd say a lot here would be interested. Lots of talk about it. but none of the actual costing of. Makes a man wonder a little. Cynisism... Maybe. Wondering. Yes. What DO they cost for an average, 6 mtr ? van. to work.
To give you a $$ figure I need you to establish what the average van actually is and what power use per 24hr the average van needs, has the average van the correct wiring from solar to battery (I can answer this one with a definite NO) does the average van use caravan parks regularly, or free camp for 3 days or more without moving so DC to DC charging is not part of the equation?
This is the problem with making statements like "The average what ever" there is no such thing. Everyone has a different requirement, if that wasn't true every van would look exactly the same inside and out, there would be no such thing as 5th wheelers or motorhomes or campervans or slide on campers or caravans, they wouldn't need a special name because they would be all the same thing, can anyone actually determine what form that would take?
Give me specifics and I can give you a better idea of cost, do you want to use the equipment you already have rather than having to buy everything new to suit a different chemistry battery, how much in Ah do you use per 24hrs, how long before you have access to an alternative charging source if the sun doesn't shine? From there I can calculate just how many Ah you need, if you have enough solar or alternative recharging available, what adaption you need for what equipment.... the list goes on, no such thing as a drop in lithium battery replacement that will last as far as I can tell unless it is so expensive it is outside the "average" persons budget, the reason is each battery has to have its own protection system built in, 2 batteries equals 2 protection systems etc, a custom built system will supply exactly what you want, only one protection and monitoring system required no matter what the size the system is and the opportunity to use existing equipment to reduce the cost.
The one thing I can tell you, lithium batteries are not going down in price like some thought they would, they are more expensive now than they were 6 yrs ago when the research and testing started. At the moment if you include strapping, preparing the cells for use including deoxidising the terminals and link plates, anti-oxidisation paste to add long periods between terminal servicing, cell conditioning for house battery use (extends the cycle life) cell links, bolts washers and possibly a few bits I've missed, $8.80 @ 12v per useable Ah where the battery will maintain 12v while under load, if you want to compare apples with apples you need to compare the price of double the Ah no matter what type of lead acid battery you are looking at and add in at least one replacement set during the same cycle life of the lithium battery.
And Peter, the Winston and Sinopoly cells are tested to full Chinese military vibration specs, a human could not survive that test with brain bruising and bleeding so they are proven to withstand corrugations.
T1 Terry
Tony Bev said
04:26 PM Nov 2, 2016
Hello MichelleWilliams I hope that I am not too late to welcome you to the forum
Hello beiffe and T1 Terry
Thanks for that information on lithium batteries, it is appreciated
It is always good to know that we have different options, and what some of those options are
Edit with egg all over my face again, as I forgot to welcome the new member I am sure that if I had half a brain, I would be dangerous
-- Edited by Tony Bev on Wednesday 2nd of November 2016 07:22:54 PM
macka17 said
06:29 PM Nov 2, 2016
Reason I was asking pricing T1.
Is I went on link above for EVOLithium.
In there.when you get there.
a single unit was $3600ish and a double unit around $5700ish.
That'd cover a LOT of alternative battery's
and that wasn't the rest of it. Just the units.
What's the difference with yours?.
They're a lot dearer.
mr glassies said
10:05 AM Nov 3, 2016
I have 400 amp batteries 1100 watt solar and a proven charge system . I have 2 12 volt fridges running 24 hrs now that's not 10 amps for 24 hrs straight fridges cycle so I have worked out in my head what the usage is in 24 hrs . 12 volt tv all lights are led , water pump , the odd phone and iPad charge use the 240 washing machine , jug , air con and microbe wave . So you might say we don't scrimp on power . We loose full sun just filtered were we are at the moment at around 4 pm with watching tv a few lights shower and coffee in the morning I check the victron and it varies from 75% to 83 % both are ishise . We don't get good sun till around 8 am just filtered a bit and my batteries are usually full by around 10 . We can go 5 days before I have to connect the $50.000 generator up ( as I Hait generators )
I put a post up yesterday my batteries were at 55% in the morning and by 11 am full so ya might say there the ducks guts I love em and so does the wife . She dosnt have to go somewhere to do the washing and we don't waist gas boiling the jug .
And with the system we have I can watch the cells and I can say there doing fine always sitting within 7 ish Millie amps from each other .
I know I will get shot down for something I have said but I'm a belever and a user . Another thing to consider is there weight my 400 amph weigh 60 kgs the same in gel would come in somewhere around 300 kgs maybe more .
Dibs
macka17 said
01:41 PM Nov 3, 2016
Woops.
I tried to copy paste the page but it got it's knickers in a twist.
Basically though.
The single "battery" unit 180A costs $3690 and weighs 35kg.
The double "battery unit 360ah costs $5720 and weighs 59kg.
and that's just the units.
DC to DC chargers and the rest of it
plus install on top of that.
If that's you T1.
I'm not surprised you nervous about printing pricing for them
I think most will be waiting a leeeeetle longer yet.
That technology for the normal person is a long way down the road;
Till it DOES come down in price.
Best of luck though
for having the guts to put your money where your mouth is.
You'd have a fair bit tied up unless it's on supply/demand.
Unfortunate scrambling below. (theirs not mine) But values/outputs.
weights and pricing visible..
=========================
EVO-180
EVO-360
Our lithium battery systems are designed so that our customers will need to know little about batteries, we have taken all the potential hazards of Lithium batteries and enclosed them with a management system creating a failsafe unit that cannot be bypassed. If the system detects a short circuit, etc it will turn itself off and you simply reset the system by pushing the on/off switch.
Evolithium battery systems come with a preset battery monitor for general applications, settings can be changed but we recommend that the settings stay locked as is when delivered.
lithium batteries in australia, evolithium, evo-180, ,12v remote power, camping power
12v power caravan, camping power, lithium battery 400a,evolithium ,evo-180,
Battery Type 12v 4 cell LiFePO4
Charging Voltage (bulk) 14.4v
Continuous Current 150A
Battery Type 12v 4 cell LiFePO4
Nominal Capacity 360Ah
Charging Voltage (bulk) 14.4v
Continuous Current 150A
Nominal Capacity 180Ah
Model No EVO-180
Model No EVO-360
Over Current Cutoff 450A+/-8%
Over Current Cutoff 450A+/-8%
Balance Current 72mA
Life Cycle 70% >3000
Min Cell Voltage Cutoff 2.6v
Life Cycle 70% >3000
Min Cell Voltage Cutoff 2.6v
Weight 59kg
Weight 35kg
Nominal Battery Voltage 12.8v dc
Charging Voltage (float) 13.5v
Nominal Battery Voltage 12.8v dc
Charging Voltage (float) 13.5v
Maximum Impulse Current 400A 15sec
Maximum Impulse Current 400A 15sec
Operating Temperature -20 +55C
Operating Temperature -20 +55C
Life Cycle 80% >2000
Life Cycle 80% >2000
Max Cell Voltage Cutoff 3.8v
Dimensions WxHxD 315x235x725mm
Mounted on edge (as shown) 205x350x725mm
Balance Current 72mA
Max Cell Voltage Cutoff 3.8v
Dimensions WxHxD 315x220x460mm
Mounted on edge 205x350x460mm
Features
316 Marine Grade Stainless Housing
Battery Monitor Included
Integrated 500a Shunt
200a Dual Coil Contactor/Relay
Anti Vibration Mounts
Overvoltage/Overdischarge Protection
Overcurrent and Overtemperature Protection
Cell Monitoring/Balanced via Intergrated BMS
Short Circuit Protection- Automatic cutout
Configured to suit Customers Requirements
Price $5720
Jaahn said
06:32 PM Nov 3, 2016
mr glassies wrote:
I have 400 amp batteries 1100 watt solar and a proven charge system . I have 2 12 volt fridges running 24 hrs now that's not 10 amps for 24 hrs straight fridges cycle so I have worked out in my head what the usage is in 24 hrs . 12 volt tv all lights are led , water pump , the odd phone and iPad charge use the 240 washing machine , jug , air con and microbe wave . So you might say we don't scrimp on power . We loose full sun just filtered were we are at the moment at around 4 pm with watching tv a few lights shower and coffee in the morning I check the victron and it varies from 75% to 83 % both are ishise . We don't get good sun till around 8 am just filtered a bit and my batteries are usually full by around 10 . We can go 5 days before I have to connect the $50.000 generator up ( as I Hait generators ) I put a post up yesterday my batteries were at 55% in the morning and by 11 am full so ya might say there the ducks guts I love em and so does the wife . She dosnt have to go somewhere to do the washing and we don't waist gas boiling the jug . And with the system we have I can watch the cells and I can say there doing fine always sitting within 7 ish Millie amps from each other . I know I will get shot down for something I have said but I'm a belever and a user . Another thing to consider is there weight my 400 amph weigh 60 kgs the same in gel would come in somewhere around 300 kgs maybe more . Dibs
Hi Dibs,
I agree that lithium is good for you and you seem to have a good setup that is doing you proud !
However to put another point of view as I see it. Your major advantage is really your 1100 watts of solar. That's some power house on the roof and much more than most people have. If you had any sort of good battery storage it would work well. So if you had 500AH of AGM batteries you would be close to what you have and 600 would be about the same usable capacity. These would weigh 600AH=~180KG.
Now I would be happy with that system and expect it to perform well too. Sure it is heavier by 120kg and that may be serious for some rigs. But it would do all I want to and I believe it would be a lot cheaper. No problems with accepting or giving out the power either.
I am not knocking the lithiums and they may be the future but the cost still stops me. The next best thing is to up the number of solar panels and get some of the benefits to my existing system with not much down side.
Jaahn
Mick c said
01:53 AM Nov 4, 2016
Great to find a current lithium thread. Just in the process of buying the components for an additional solar/lithium setup. If it's ok with you guys would like to check out my thoughts with you. A bit of a sanity check if you like.
Winnie Alpine 30 foot. I think we use about 120ah day.
Current set up... Truck crank batteries LA - 2 x12 volt for 24volt chassis...staying as is... House batteries LA - 3 x 105ah charged via a mastervolt charger inverter AND 2 x 80watt solar panels via PL20 regulator And truck alternator. Also have an Onan 3.6kw generator.
The future set up... Existing house batteries will stay until dead... New additional panels 6x200watt@12 volts. I am debating which way to go with these, either send 2 through the existing PL20 to give more solar charging to the LA batteries or send all 6 panels to the new LiFePo batteries...not sure.. If I go all six panels to new bank I will need a 80amp solar regulator and have excess capacity sitting in the PL20. If I split them I can go with a 60amp regulator. Regardless the new solar regulator will feed the new 200ah LiFePo battery bank. Bms or individul cell monitoring...well I get lost around here! Feedback badly needed here.
Finally, since I will have two battery banks I'm not sure how I'll connect the two sets of batteries. Is it simply a case of connecting the positive to positive and negative to negative of each battery set?. Or will this through a spanner in the whole balancing question?
Really really appreciate your feedback...
Mick
-- Edited by Mick c on Friday 4th of November 2016 01:54:48 AM
-- Edited by Mick c on Friday 4th of November 2016 01:56:23 AM
macka17 said
04:14 PM Nov 4, 2016
T1.
Are those EvoLithium you??
It says The 180ah unit is $3600. and 35kg.
And the 380ah unit is $5700 and 59kg
Then you have to have the DC to DC charger?. etc
What would be combined complete assy weight for the, say 180ah kit
Installed. with approx. installation fees for such?.
So people could have a general idea of costing to go from AGM system
to Lithium. On a new rig, or upgrading
When it's estimated that the 180ah unit will do the job.
or if the 380ah will do. again, rough estimates (ball park) only.
A lot of us here ARE interested. and need to know the dollar side of it, basically.
so we know whether yes, feasable
or no not feasable.
But a person need to know first.
El Gringo said
06:12 PM Nov 4, 2016
Evo lithiun is not T1. nor does he have any dealings with them.
Terry has already given you a budget to work out the battery price of $8.80 per A/H for a 12v system, so for 100AH you would be looking at $880 for the battery.
As he also posted earlier the control box you need varies from case to case, so you will need to contact him directly for those costs.
Send him a PM - I think he is out of range for Internet at present but it won't be too long before he will get back to you.
Cheers,
Bernie
mr glassies said
06:43 PM Nov 4, 2016
You took the words out of my mouth Bernie.
jaahn not exactly as you say if I had gel batteries I would have been close to full in that short time . Yes I have a lot of solar and not a big batterie as I have seen . But I have a sick wife that the heat affects and the system I have I can run the air con for a long time through the day and keep her comfortable . If you listen to people that have good systems or read between the lines you will see how good they really are and how they work because they really work a lot different to deep cycle batteries . Especially how much you can drag of them and how much you can punch into them . But it has to be setup properly . And even though there are a lot of people don't be leave it there is a proper way to set up the charge system . I might sound a bit bias but if you talk to people who have experimented as much as the guy that did mine you will understand and his customers . You don't get to install a setup into a $100,000 outfit if you don't think it will work . I don't know what to say cept I love them and they do more than I would ever have dreamed .
Dibs
HI Team
Enjoying the forums and can see how helpful and fun everyone is. Terrific.
I was wondering if anyone had purchased Lithium batteries to use as house batteries in a caravan or motorhome. Ours collapses after working on corregated roads these last few months and want a robust solution. Hubby keen to spend the money on Lithium. I am not so sure it is worth it. Hoping for helpful experience to shine through. brands? Sizes? Issues? Advantages?
Have a $1200 odd Lithium battery for my inflatable boat that is similar to a house battery and I treated in a similar fashion but not connected to a charger but in parallel with an AGM battery and charged by Sola, have not tried it out in my boat for a while so fingers crossed.
I personally would not purchase a lithium house battery for a caravan or motor home, because I think the body of knowledge on use and charging is still in the early days. For both the above over the past 3 years I have received various comments about charge/discharge/use cycle, the one I believe most is that the Lithium batteries last longest on an ebike if the bike is used and charged every day. To me the use and charge concept does not fit with House/boat batteries. If your caravan is not is use for x months do you want to do the 6 weeks charge/disconnect cycle.
I recently attended and RPA ( Remote Pilotted Aircraft/Drone) seminar and recall that they use lithioum batteries with smart chargers and from memory use similar charge methods to the e-bike seller above ie they do not leave the battery connected to a smart charger all the time.
Note I am not a lithium battery specialist and others more knowledgeable/experience may disagree with my comments.
Peter
Maybe you could take a look at the 'Solar Power' sub forum just above here, heaps of good info there. You could also do a seach for Littium Batteries in the 'seach' bar just above the list of sections.
Keep Safe on the roads and out there.
Please note there are several different types of chemistry that use lithium as a component. The model plane and ebike batteries are lithium ion and/or lithium polymer and have a very high charge density and are not suitable as house batteries. They also pose a fire risk if mishandled.
The lithium batteries used for caravans are lithium/iron/phosphate commonly known as LiFePo4. Totally different chemistry and well understood in the role of house batteries.
We have been using a lithium battery now for 3 years and are very happy with its performance, but they are expensive so are best suited for regular usage rather than occasional trips.
Alan
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Sunday 30th of October 2016 07:51:19 PM
I'm not trying to do a plug for myself here but I want to be open and up front, I do install lithium and solar systems.... and I have seen some rather suspect installs just lately too, so be very careful as there are a lot of new players out there trying to jump on the lithium band wagon without really knowing what they are doing.
T1 Terry
Li have advantages in weight and the ability to deliver high currents for big appliances. They are a big investment.
There is no evidence that they withstand corrugations any better than AGMs. Both Lis and AGMs will seriously outperform wet cells on vibrations.
Our OKA spends most of its life off the bitumen. the first 2 crank batteries were wet cells. They lasted 2 years and 3 years respectively until I installed an AGM crank battery which is now coming up 7 years old and going well. Our Fullriver AGM house batteries likewise have survived the corrugations without issue.
Cheers,
Peter
The old "CAT" battery's, and the blue label?? ones we used on dozers and track
loaders.
get more thrashing in a coupla days than a tyre mounted battery of any type
would get in a month. Believe me.
They are wet cells and designed for real rough work
I used to operate an old Cat 9 dozer with a "Kelly Bar" on arse.
A kelly is a single shank ripper, used for breaking out rock seams.
12/15 hr shifts. ripping rock.
Still started after lunch and next morn.
and my wet cells coupled to panels regularly give 5 to 7 yrs. normally mid 6.
Who needs more.
AGM are heavier and twice the price. Not much more life to them.
Theses Lithium are just ridiculous till technology a lot older and sensible priced..
If a person needs to buy lightweight battery's on his mobile rig for limits..
He NEEDS to look seriously at his weights elsewhere first.
Far too many carry far too much weight and far too big rigs,
for their cars capacity's.
These Lithiums at present are more the bigger dick syndrome,
in real life.
Dibs
Just remember they are still causing fires on scooters and other things. Maybe mobile phones too. They hold a good charge for their size so if they short out thats what you get is a fire. Some airlines want them banned.
Its new technology so let them iron out the bugs first and you will sleep better.
Wish people would do the research before commenting, all the Lipo batteries that catch fire are just that Lipo batteries, where those being installed in all RV's are LiFe04 batteries which do not catch fire. Yes they are both Lithium but one is in models and scooters while the others are in Golf carts and RV's no fires !!!
PeterInSa could you check your ebike battery for type as all batteries that I can find on the net are NOT LiFePo4 but are lithium-ion batteries which are totally different chemistry.
Alan
But let somebody else find out first hey.
No different to buying new car. NEVER buy first (mk 1) model of anything.
Get the bugs out of that one first.
Mk 2 in 99% of cases. will be a much better purchase
Battery's exactly the same..
The price of them. for a "battery" hmm.
Much better spending money on a Genny I reckon.
Waaaay more useful.
I think I'd rather wait and see where this other fuel type technology goes.
We KNOW our battery's last for 7 yrs and more now. 10+ for good ones
I still reckon it's a bigger d--k syndrome myself.
A Battery is a Battery, no matter the size.
and who wants all that household crap in a van anyway.
The idea (as far as I know) has always been to get away from that
MOST of us spend a lot of time. reducing the load carried.
switched-on-cycles.myshopify.com/pages/about-batteries
I will try and explain my view as a person who has used the technology for over 5 years in my motorhome
LiFePo4 are really mainly an option for people who use their rigs full time or people who want /need the little things that make life more enjoyable.
When comparing price of batteries compare the usable AH of your battery and work on that. !00AH wet AGM will normally supply 50AH so divide the cost by 50 LiFePo4 give 80Ah so divide by 80.
Some rough figures on the differences but some will disagree but I think I am in the ball park.
AGM recommended 50% discharge and then have to recharge to 100% for extended life. The more times you go below 50% and the more they dont get returned to 100% the shorter the life expectancy.
LiFePo4 recommended to at least 80% discharge and no need to fully charged, actually better if it never gets to 100%.
LiFePo4 has a lot faster charge rate as they will take all the charge from your solar or charger available where as wet cells taper off from about 70% to nearly nothing by the time they are 90%. Also wet cells have a recommended Max charge where as LiFePo4 will take all you can give.
LiFePo4 will deliver high loads and keep voltage, usually above 13v, where a wet cell does not like heavy loads and very quickly drops its voltage, the experts can explain Puckett for you but basically LiFePo4 will give similar AH whether high or low load where a wet cell will drastically reduce the available AH depending on the load. High load less AH.
A 100AH LiFePo4 will deliver the full 80AH from full to 20% irrespective of the load, wet cells drastically drop their available AH in comparison to the load you apply, higher the load less power available.
There is various options for installing LiFePo4.
1. Buy your cells and set them up your self.
Can be done if you have researched various forums and able to sort the wheat from the chaff , but be aware there is a lot of BS mixed in from people with none or very little experience the same as is being shared on this thread already. This is the cheapest option.
2. Buy the drop in and pay big bucks and time will tell whether they know what they are doing.
3. Get someone with the experience to do the install for you. This perhaps is the most expensive option but you will / should get your rig setup for LiFePo4 and you will not have the problems the first two options will / may give.
Personally I have had my bus powered by LifePo4 for over 5 years and used 24/7 12 months of the year and now in the process of installing them in my house boat.
I am not worried one way or the other what people have. If you like the candle for light and struggle with limited power or need to run a genni all the time so be it.
I prefer to have the ability to cook a good meal when I want, have a good coffee at the flick of a switch and enjoy aircon in the summer and a hot shower all supplied from my batteries and the solar. I have no gas on board at all for the full 5 years I have owned the bus and will soon be the same on the house boat.
It is my life and my money and it is my choice the same as all on here have the same choice in their own life styles.
I hope that gives those interested a un technical explanation to help decide what they want.
I normally give info like this only by PM but thought I would try just once more on this forum and see what happens
Thanks beiffe, appreciated.
Aussie Paul.
your system. complete.
A lot of us live/lived for yrs with wet/AGM batt's. panels and genny for aircond
quite happily.
apart from Aircond. a lot run everything on the other battery's.
Mine never went below 12.6v by sunrise.and back to 13+ v by mid day.
Having the battery power and panels to suit.
Genny I have anyway for home and boat so that don't count really.
I'd like to hear what a full system. Installed. as yours.
actually costs and what it's capacity is.
why don't you and T1 tell us. in dollars.
is it practical,
or much like a Bentley driving round with the Falcons.
I'd say a lot here would be interested.
Lots of talk about it. but none of the actual costing of.
Makes a man wonder a little. Cynisism... Maybe.
Wondering. Yes.
What DO they cost for an average, 6 mtr ? van.
to work.
Only had system for a year but very happy so far. Deepest discharge 179AH (ie close to 10% SoC) in really bad weather but they recharged back to 100% in a few hours when we moved to a powered site. One thing: a voltmeter is useless for checking state of charge because they hardly move off 13.2V until almost flat. Need a monitor like a Victron BMV700 ($200-odd).
Phil
AH usable, not a lot of difference if compared to AGM's for the actual batteries with DIY, just you need to know what you are doing
Appreciate it if you could give me/us a list of parts/model numbers including the monitor via the forum or PM me.
Thnaks
Peter
To give you a $$ figure I need you to establish what the average van actually is and what power use per 24hr the average van needs, has the average van the correct wiring from solar to battery (I can answer this one with a definite NO) does the average van use caravan parks regularly, or free camp for 3 days or more without moving so DC to DC charging is not part of the equation?
This is the problem with making statements like "The average what ever" there is no such thing. Everyone has a different requirement, if that wasn't true every van would look exactly the same inside and out, there would be no such thing as 5th wheelers or motorhomes or campervans or slide on campers or caravans, they wouldn't need a special name because they would be all the same thing, can anyone actually determine what form that would take?
Give me specifics and I can give you a better idea of cost, do you want to use the equipment you already have rather than having to buy everything new to suit a different chemistry battery, how much in Ah do you use per 24hrs, how long before you have access to an alternative charging source if the sun doesn't shine? From there I can calculate just how many Ah you need, if you have enough solar or alternative recharging available, what adaption you need for what equipment.... the list goes on, no such thing as a drop in lithium battery replacement that will last as far as I can tell unless it is so expensive it is outside the "average" persons budget, the reason is each battery has to have its own protection system built in, 2 batteries equals 2 protection systems etc, a custom built system will supply exactly what you want, only one protection and monitoring system required no matter what the size the system is and the opportunity to use existing equipment to reduce the cost.
The one thing I can tell you, lithium batteries are not going down in price like some thought they would, they are more expensive now than they were 6 yrs ago when the research and testing started. At the moment if you include strapping, preparing the cells for use including deoxidising the terminals and link plates, anti-oxidisation paste to add long periods between terminal servicing, cell conditioning for house battery use (extends the cycle life) cell links, bolts washers and possibly a few bits I've missed, $8.80 @ 12v per useable Ah where the battery will maintain 12v while under load, if you want to compare apples with apples you need to compare the price of double the Ah no matter what type of lead acid battery you are looking at and add in at least one replacement set during the same cycle life of the lithium battery.
And Peter, the Winston and Sinopoly cells are tested to full Chinese military vibration specs, a human could not survive that test with brain bruising and bleeding so they are proven to withstand corrugations.
T1 Terry
Hello MichelleWilliams
I hope that I am not too late to welcome you to the forum
Hello beiffe and T1 Terry
Thanks for that information on lithium batteries, it is appreciated
It is always good to know that we have different options, and what some of those options are
Edit with egg all over my face again, as I forgot to welcome the new member
I am sure that if I had half a brain, I would be dangerous
-- Edited by Tony Bev on Wednesday 2nd of November 2016 07:22:54 PM
Is I went on link above for EVOLithium.
In there.when you get there.
a single unit was $3600ish and a double unit around $5700ish.
That'd cover a LOT of alternative battery's
and that wasn't the rest of it. Just the units.
What's the difference with yours?.
They're a lot dearer.
I put a post up yesterday my batteries were at 55% in the morning and by 11 am full so ya might say there the ducks guts I love em and so does the wife . She dosnt have to go somewhere to do the washing and we don't waist gas boiling the jug .
And with the system we have I can watch the cells and I can say there doing fine always sitting within 7 ish Millie amps from each other .
I know I will get shot down for something I have said but I'm a belever and a user . Another thing to consider is there weight my 400 amph weigh 60 kgs the same in gel would come in somewhere around 300 kgs maybe more .
Dibs
I tried to copy paste the page but it got it's knickers in a twist.
Basically though.
The single "battery" unit 180A costs $3690 and weighs 35kg.
The double "battery unit 360ah costs $5720 and weighs 59kg.
and that's just the units.
DC to DC chargers and the rest of it
plus install on top of that.
If that's you T1.
I'm not surprised you nervous about printing pricing for them
I think most will be waiting a leeeeetle longer yet.
That technology for the normal person is a long way down the road;
Till it DOES come down in price.
Best of luck though
for having the guts to put your money where your mouth is.
You'd have a fair bit tied up unless it's on supply/demand.
Unfortunate scrambling below. (theirs not mine) But values/outputs.
weights and pricing visible..
=========================
EVO-180
EVO-360
Our lithium battery systems are designed so that our customers will need to know little about batteries, we have taken all the potential hazards of Lithium batteries and enclosed them with a management system creating a failsafe unit that cannot be bypassed. If the system detects a short circuit, etc it will turn itself off and you simply reset the system by pushing the on/off switch.
Evolithium battery systems come with a preset battery monitor for general applications, settings can be changed but we recommend that the settings stay locked as is when delivered.
lithium batteries in australia, evolithium, evo-180, ,12v remote power, camping power
12v power caravan, camping power, lithium battery 400a,evolithium ,evo-180,
Battery Type 12v 4 cell LiFePO4
Charging Voltage (bulk) 14.4v
Continuous Current 150A
Battery Type 12v 4 cell LiFePO4
Nominal Capacity 360Ah
Charging Voltage (bulk) 14.4v
Continuous Current 150A
Nominal Capacity 180Ah
Model No EVO-180
Model No EVO-360
Over Current Cutoff 450A+/-8%
Over Current Cutoff 450A+/-8%
Balance Current 72mA
Life Cycle 70% >3000
Min Cell Voltage Cutoff 2.6v
Life Cycle 70% >3000
Min Cell Voltage Cutoff 2.6v
Weight 59kg
Weight 35kg
Nominal Battery Voltage 12.8v dc
Charging Voltage (float) 13.5v
Nominal Battery Voltage 12.8v dc
Charging Voltage (float) 13.5v
Maximum Impulse Current 400A 15sec
Maximum Impulse Current 400A 15sec
Operating Temperature -20 +55C
Operating Temperature -20 +55C
Life Cycle 80% >2000
Life Cycle 80% >2000
Max Cell Voltage Cutoff 3.8v
Dimensions WxHxD 315x235x725mm
Mounted on edge (as shown) 205x350x725mm
Balance Current 72mA
Max Cell Voltage Cutoff 3.8v
Dimensions WxHxD 315x220x460mm
Mounted on edge 205x350x460mm
Features
316 Marine Grade Stainless Housing
Battery Monitor Included
Integrated 500a Shunt
200a Dual Coil Contactor/Relay
Anti Vibration Mounts
Overvoltage/Overdischarge Protection
Overcurrent and Overtemperature Protection
Cell Monitoring/Balanced via Intergrated BMS
Short Circuit Protection- Automatic cutout
Configured to suit Customers Requirements
Price $5720
Hi Dibs,
I agree that lithium is good for you
and you seem to have a good setup that is doing you proud !
However to put another point of view as I see it. Your major advantage is really your 1100 watts of solar. That's some power house on the roof and much more than most people have. If you had any sort of good battery storage it would work well. So if you had 500AH of AGM batteries you would be close to what you have and 600 would be about the same usable capacity. These would weigh 600AH=~180KG.
Now I would be happy with that system and expect it to perform well too. Sure it is heavier by 120kg and that may be serious for some rigs. But it would do all I want to and I believe it would be a lot cheaper. No problems with accepting or giving out the power either.
I am not knocking the lithiums and they may be the future but the cost still stops me. The next best thing is to up the number of solar panels and get some of the benefits to my existing system with not much down side.
Jaahn
Great to find a current lithium thread. Just in the process of buying the components for an additional solar/lithium setup. If it's ok with you guys would like to check out my thoughts with you. A bit of a sanity check if you like.
Winnie Alpine 30 foot. I think we use about 120ah day.
Current set up...
Truck crank batteries LA - 2 x12 volt for 24volt chassis...staying as is...
House batteries LA - 3 x 105ah charged via a mastervolt charger inverter AND 2 x 80watt solar panels via PL20 regulator And truck alternator. Also have an Onan 3.6kw generator.
The future set up...
Existing house batteries will stay until dead...
New additional panels 6x200watt@12 volts. I am debating which way to go with these, either send 2 through the existing PL20 to give more solar charging to the LA batteries or send all 6 panels to the new LiFePo batteries...not sure.. If I go all six panels to new bank I will need a 80amp solar regulator and have excess capacity sitting in the PL20. If I split them I can go with a 60amp regulator. Regardless the new solar regulator will feed the new 200ah LiFePo battery bank. Bms or individul cell monitoring...well I get lost around here! Feedback badly needed here.
Finally, since I will have two battery banks I'm not sure how I'll connect the two sets of batteries. Is it simply a case of connecting the positive to positive and negative to negative of each battery set?. Or will this through a spanner in the whole balancing question?
Really really appreciate your feedback...
Mick
-- Edited by Mick c on Friday 4th of November 2016 01:54:48 AM
-- Edited by Mick c on Friday 4th of November 2016 01:56:23 AM
Are those EvoLithium you??
It says The 180ah unit is $3600. and 35kg.
And the 380ah unit is $5700 and 59kg
Then you have to have the DC to DC charger?. etc
What would be combined complete assy weight for the, say 180ah kit
Installed. with approx. installation fees for such?.
So people could have a general idea of costing to go from AGM system
to Lithium. On a new rig, or upgrading
When it's estimated that the 180ah unit will do the job.
or if the 380ah will do. again, rough estimates (ball park) only.
A lot of us here ARE interested. and need to know the dollar side of it, basically.
so we know whether yes, feasable
or no not feasable.
But a person need to know first.
Terry has already given you a budget to work out the battery price of $8.80 per A/H for a 12v system, so for 100AH you would be looking at $880 for the battery.
As he also posted earlier the control box you need varies from case to case, so you will need to contact him directly for those costs.
Send him a PM - I think he is out of range for Internet at present but it won't be too long before he will get back to you.
Cheers,
Bernie
jaahn not exactly as you say if I had gel batteries I would have been close to full in that short time . Yes I have a lot of solar and not a big batterie as I have seen . But I have a sick wife that the heat affects and the system I have I can run the air con for a long time through the day and keep her comfortable . If you listen to people that have good systems or read between the lines you will see how good they really are and how they work because they really work a lot different to deep cycle batteries . Especially how much you can drag of them and how much you can punch into them . But it has to be setup properly . And even though there are a lot of people don't be leave it there is a proper way to set up the charge system . I might sound a bit bias but if you talk to people who have experimented as much as the guy that did mine you will understand and his customers . You don't get to install a setup into a $100,000 outfit if you don't think it will work . I don't know what to say cept I love them and they do more than I would ever have dreamed .
Dibs