Hi Techies, I have recently upgraded the electrical cable and associated protection on tug (Iveco twin cab ute 50C18) to get 100amps to an Anderson plug mounted at the rear of the vehicle from the alternator, the alternator is rated at 110amps but only getting 30amps generated (measured at both ends of the new cable) . The upgrade was installed by auto electrician and they say that there is probably some kind of protection system on the alternator preventing / restricting the amperage output. Any suggestions as to what and how to increase the output, or is this not advisable or possible, or should I just go to the nearest Iveco dealer?
Aus-Kiwi said
06:25 PM Apr 30, 2016
It will be the built in regulator ., I have a car with battery changed to boot . We installed a regulator near the battery so the dreaded VD didn't change things. Amps depends on load also .
Bitumin Surfers said
06:49 PM Apr 30, 2016
So it is possible to achieve a higher output but I need to alter / change the regulator setting. Can I do this or it needs an auto elec do this or do I need to take it to Iveco dealer?
patrol03 said
07:04 PM Apr 30, 2016
The alternator must be under load to get an output reading of current or you want to check for voltage drop.Years ago when we used to set up adjustable regulators on dc genies we used a known load and adjusted the points up to suit the situation.Suggest you introduce a low charged battery into the system and then do your testing.
Bitumin Surfers said
07:53 PM Apr 30, 2016
Thanks Aus-Kiwi & Patrol03 for your replies, any suggestions on how to alter the regulators settings?
Aus-Kiwi said
08:13 PM Apr 30, 2016
Is there engine battery and house battery ? Or another engine battery installed ?
Bitumin Surfers said
08:33 PM Apr 30, 2016
There is the tug battery then via the Anderson plug connects to 120amp dc to dc charger then to lithium iron battery management system.
Aus-Kiwi said
08:48 PM Apr 30, 2016
Not my specialty . I would assume the DC to DC charger would do I for you . Is there settings on charger that states type of battery ?
Bitumin Surfers said
09:11 PM Apr 30, 2016
yes, the settings are for the lithium iron battery system.
PeterD said
10:39 PM Apr 30, 2016
The modern alternators are current regulated by the amount of magnetic material in their rotating field. That self regulates the maximum current output from your alternator.
Your DC-DC charger should be able to draw more than 30 A from your battery for a short period so I would suspect that the does not want to draw more current from the vehicle system. What is the voltage at each end of the feed line to the charger? What is the minimum input voltage for the DC-DC charger? What is the make and model number of your charger? Most DC-DC chargers will not work properly unless you can supply the minimum current that they require to operate, The only ones I know of are that will work with less current are the Sterling Power Systems alternator to battery chargers.
Bitumin Surfers said
10:45 PM Apr 30, 2016
Hi Peter, The charger is a Sterling DC-DC 120a
PeterD said
10:49 PM Apr 30, 2016
Is it the battery to battery type or the alternator to battery type?
What is its input voltage when it is drawing the 30 A?
-- Edited by PeterD on Saturday 30th of April 2016 10:50:28 PM
Bitumin Surfers said
11:03 PM Apr 30, 2016
Hi Peter, I'll have to get back to you tomorrow once I have taken some readings.
I can't imagine how the alternator could be limiting the current to the charger. If the alternator has insufficient capacity for the electrical system, then the balance of the current demand would be drawn from the main battery. That's how automotive electrical systems work. Furthermore, if the voltage dropped below a preset threshold, then the charger would shut down.
-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 1st of May 2016 08:33:11 AM
Jaahn said
12:31 PM May 1, 2016
Hi,
That's some piece of complicated electrical gear. You said an auto electrician set it up ?? But did he understand how it works ?
It seems to me that it is possible that it may be controlling the current in the Stirling unit. I cannot say without studying the instructions in detail but as it only is in boost mode for 30min max then perhaps it would need some carefully thought out load test to see what it will do.
If the batteries are getting to the boost voltage then the Stirling will cut it back as necessary. If the alternator output is getting to the set voltage it will cut it back too. It may be a "smart" alternator also which will cause problems. No ready answer here.
Does anybody know if the Iveco alternator is a "smart" type that runs lower voltages etc ??? It is possible to turn these functions off in some vehicles in the ECU and it runs "normally". In the old style alternators the regulator function is fixed in the hardware and can only be varied by tricking it. A diode in the sense wire.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 1st of May 2016 12:34:45 PM
Bitumin Surfers said
03:52 PM May 1, 2016
Just arrived back to see your posts. The following results just obtained from unit:
Connected tug via Anderson plug to the battery system at 3:14pm, engine running at 1500rpm - 41% charge in battery, tug delivering 403 watts of power at 33.4amps at 13.4 volts.
at 3.24pm at same engine speed - 44% charge in battery, tug delivering 401 watts at 32.8amps at 13.4 volts.
Hope this helps in your deliberations.
Bitumin Surfers said
03:58 PM May 1, 2016
Sorry Dorian, In answer to your question yes the DC to DC unit is the Sterling 120 amp unit.
-- Edited by Bitumin Surfers on Sunday 1st of May 2016 03:59:48 PM
aussie_paul said
04:56 PM May 1, 2016
I can't get my head around the difference between a bcdc and a dcdc charger. I am not having a good week re understanding stuff!!!!
Aussie Paul.
03_Troopy said
05:46 PM May 1, 2016
aussie_paul wrote:
I can't get my head around the difference between a bcdc and a dcdc charger. I am not having a good week re understanding stuff!!!!
Aussie Paul.
BCDC is just the part numbers for a range of DC-DC chargers Redarc make. ie BCDC1225 BCDC1240 etc... they are DC-DC chargers though.
aussie_paul said
06:07 PM May 1, 2016
03_Troopy wrote:
BCDC is just the part numbers for a range of DC-DC chargers Redarc make. ie BCDC1225 BCDC1240 etc... they are DC-DC chargers though.
Thanks Troopy.
Aussie Paul.
PeterD said
07:47 AM May 3, 2016
PeterD wrote:Your DC-DC charger should be able to draw more than 30 A from your battery for a short period so I would suspect that the does not want to draw more current from the vehicle system. What is the voltage at each end of the feed line to the charger? What is the minimum input voltage for the DC-DC charger? What is the make and model number of your charger?
Colin, I am still awaiting for you to fully answer my questions. You answered some but not all. I can not proceed with an answer until I get all the answers. I am particularly requiring "the voltage at each end of the feed line to the charger?"
-- Edited by PeterD on Tuesday 3rd of May 2016 07:52:09 AM
Bitumin Surfers said
08:32 PM May 3, 2016
Hi Peter, sorry for the delay, 13.4 volts at the Anderson plug and the DC to DC charger in the unit, I have no way of measuring the voltage at the tug battery end.
-- Edited by Bitumin Surfers on Tuesday 3rd of May 2016 08:34:54 PM
PeterD said
11:16 PM May 3, 2016
Colin, I take it you have the BBW12120 model. I have downloaded the handbook for it from the Sterling site. On page 2 it has the following
"How does the unit work?
"The unit monitors the engine start battery. This unit will not start until the battery voltage exceeds about 13.3V (x2 for 24V). After that, it pulls the engine battery down to no less than 13.3V. This enables the engine battery to still receive a small charge and ensures the alternator works at its full potential. The unit takes the 13.3V into the control box and then boosts this up to a maximum of 15.5V (selectable chemistry profiles between 14.0-15.5V - consult battery manufacturer)."
Your charger is larger than the capacity of the alternator. The power requirement to run the tug is probably larger than you realise so that leaves a lot less than the alternators 110 A capacity. From that quote you will see that the charger requires an input of 13.3 V for it to operate and the highest voltage you have is 13.4 at the Anderson plug. I am trying to establish the voltage drop between the alternator/battery and the charger. If you have 1 V drop over the the supply cable then and the alternator voltage is 14.3 V then the charger is what is limiting the charging current and not the tugs electrical system.
How are you measuring the voltage and current? Are you using the remote control metering of the charger? What you need to do for me is to get someone with a multi meter and have then measure the battery voltage in the tug and the voltage at the input terminals of the charger.
Bitumin Surfers said
07:49 AM May 4, 2016
Hi Peter,
Yes the BBW12120 model is installed in the unit and i'm getting the measurements using the internal monitoring and control device, a Victron Energy Colour Control GX.
I will see the auto electrician today to take the readings you listed. Will the unit need to be attached to the tug to accurately get the required readings?
-- Edited by Bitumin Surfers on Wednesday 4th of May 2016 07:52:34 AM
-- Edited by Bitumin Surfers on Wednesday 4th of May 2016 07:57:53 AM
PeterD said
11:26 AM May 4, 2016
Unless you have the BBW12120 in its normal operating state you will not get any meaningful readings. There will be no voltage drop along the feed cable unless it is drawing power. Get the electrician to join another piece of cable in parallel with the existing one and see if you get an increase in charge current.
Bitumin Surfers said
05:49 PM May 4, 2016
Hi Peter, Auto elec busy today, will try again tomorrow.
Will he have to run two parallel wires to make a circuit between the tug battery and the DC to DC charger in addition to the installed wires?
dorian said
06:16 AM May 5, 2016
PeterD's info appears to be suggesting that the charger is performing output current limiting in order to maintain its input voltage above a cut-out threshold.
ISTM that one could defeat this current limit, or at least increase it, by re-jumpering the charger for "regenerative braking" mode. I'm not suggesting that this would be a permanent solution, merely a temporary reconfiguration for testing purposes.
3) Regenerative braking Ignition feed activation.
Ignition feed to +12V and link Auto w/ Low V. Initial activation input voltage is 13.3V. However, the sleep voltage is below 12.2V. If ignition feed is cut at any voltage the unit enters sleep. To get out of sleep the live feed must be re-established and the input voltage must be above 12.2V - 10 second delay. This mode complements Regen. Braking / Smart Alts.
WARNING - This mode could potentially drain battery.
Bitumin Surfers said
11:00 AM May 5, 2016
Thanks gentlemen for your input and ideas, I have booked the units into the auto elec next Thursday (their earliest available date) will post results once obtained.
beiffe said
08:43 AM May 7, 2016
Why are you using a lithium setting. If you dont have Lithium then dont use taht option. Most/all commercial Lithium battery chargers have voltages way too high for Lithium but too low for AGM's etc. Try setting to another charging regime.
I can only talk from my expereince so up to you to decide.
Regards
Brian
Bitumin Surfers said
06:00 PM May 7, 2016
Hi beiffe, thanks for the suggestions.
I have had recently installed in the unit (5th wheeler) is an Evolithium 180amp lithium iron battery management system (including batteries), Sterling DC-DC 120a DC to DC battery charger, Victron Energy 2000watt inverter, Victron Energy solar power management unit, the Victron Energy Colour Control GX monitoring unit and new wiring from the tugs battery to the units mains 240 volt system.
The total system was designed by Evolithium and installed by local auto electrician under the guidance of the Evolithium Manager to suit the installed appliances. The installed system is working extremely well other then this hickup with the incoming amperage from the alternator. Mains, Solar and DC to DC are all working but I would like / believe there should be greater amperage from the alternator as I don't want to carry a generator. Hopefully some light will be shed on this issue on Thursday when I have a different auto elec (this one specialising in Iveco units) doing a full field test on the alternator and taking measurements at either end of the new installed wiring from the alternator to the DC to DC charger. Any required setting changes will likely take place following these tests.
Hi Techies, I have recently upgraded the electrical cable and associated protection on tug (Iveco twin cab ute 50C18) to get 100amps to an Anderson plug mounted at the rear of the vehicle from the alternator, the alternator is rated at 110amps but only getting 30amps generated (measured at both ends of the new cable) . The upgrade was installed by auto electrician and they say that there is probably some kind of protection system on the alternator preventing / restricting the amperage output. Any suggestions as to what and how to increase the output, or is this not advisable or possible, or should I just go to the nearest Iveco dealer?
So it is possible to achieve a higher output but I need to alter / change the regulator setting. Can I do this or it needs an auto elec do this or do I need to take it to Iveco dealer?
Thanks Aus-Kiwi & Patrol03 for your replies, any suggestions on how to alter the regulators settings?
There is the tug battery then via the Anderson plug connects to 120amp dc to dc charger then to lithium iron battery management system.
yes, the settings are for the lithium iron battery system.
The modern alternators are current regulated by the amount of magnetic material in their rotating field. That self regulates the maximum current output from your alternator.
Your DC-DC charger should be able to draw more than 30 A from your battery for a short period so I would suspect that the does not want to draw more current from the vehicle system. What is the voltage at each end of the feed line to the charger? What is the minimum input voltage for the DC-DC charger? What is the make and model number of your charger? Most DC-DC chargers will not work properly unless you can supply the minimum current that they require to operate, The only ones I know of are that will work with less current are the Sterling Power Systems alternator to battery chargers.
Is it the battery to battery type or the alternator to battery type?
What is its input voltage when it is drawing the 30 A?
-- Edited by PeterD on Saturday 30th of April 2016 10:50:28 PM
Is this the unit in question?
http://www.sterling-power-usa.com/library/bbw12120manual.pdf
I can't imagine how the alternator could be limiting the current to the charger. If the alternator has insufficient capacity for the electrical system, then the balance of the current demand would be drawn from the main battery. That's how automotive electrical systems work. Furthermore, if the voltage dropped below a preset threshold, then the charger would shut down.
-- Edited by dorian on Sunday 1st of May 2016 08:33:11 AM
Hi,
That's some piece of complicated electrical gear. You said an auto electrician set it up ?? But did he understand how it works ?
It seems to me that it is possible that it may be controlling the current in the Stirling unit. I cannot say without studying the instructions in detail but as it only is in boost mode for 30min max then perhaps it would need some carefully thought out load test to see what it will do.
If the batteries are getting to the boost voltage then the Stirling will cut it back as necessary. If the alternator output is getting to the set voltage it will cut it back too. It may be a "smart" alternator also which will cause problems. No ready answer here.
Does anybody know if the Iveco alternator is a "smart" type that runs lower voltages etc ??? It is possible to turn these functions off in some vehicles in the ECU and it runs "normally". In the old style alternators the regulator function is fixed in the hardware and can only be varied by tricking it. A diode in the sense wire.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Sunday 1st of May 2016 12:34:45 PM
Connected tug via Anderson plug to the battery system at 3:14pm, engine running at 1500rpm - 41% charge in battery, tug delivering 403 watts of power at 33.4amps at 13.4 volts.
at 3.24pm at same engine speed - 44% charge in battery, tug delivering 401 watts at 32.8amps at 13.4 volts.
Hope this helps in your deliberations.
Sorry Dorian, In answer to your question yes the DC to DC unit is the Sterling 120 amp unit.
-- Edited by Bitumin Surfers on Sunday 1st of May 2016 03:59:48 PM
I can't get my head around the difference between a bcdc and a dcdc charger. I am not having a good week re understanding stuff!!!!
Aussie Paul.
BCDC is just the part numbers for a range of DC-DC chargers Redarc make. ie BCDC1225 BCDC1240 etc... they are DC-DC chargers though.
Thanks Troopy.
Aussie Paul.
Colin, I am still awaiting for you to fully answer my questions. You answered some but not all. I can not proceed with an answer until I get all the answers. I am particularly requiring "the voltage at each end of the feed line to the charger?"
-- Edited by PeterD on Tuesday 3rd of May 2016 07:52:09 AM
Hi Peter, sorry for the delay, 13.4 volts at the Anderson plug and the DC to DC charger in the unit, I have no way of measuring the voltage at the tug battery end.
-- Edited by Bitumin Surfers on Tuesday 3rd of May 2016 08:34:54 PM
Colin, I take it you have the BBW12120 model. I have downloaded the handbook for it from the Sterling site. On page 2 it has the following
"How does the unit work?
"The unit monitors the engine start battery. This unit will not start until the battery voltage exceeds about 13.3V (x2 for 24V). After that, it pulls the engine battery down to no less than 13.3V. This enables the engine battery to still receive a small charge and ensures the alternator works at its full potential. The unit takes the 13.3V into the control box and then boosts this up to a maximum of 15.5V (selectable chemistry profiles between 14.0-15.5V - consult battery manufacturer)."
Your charger is larger than the capacity of the alternator. The power requirement to run the tug is probably larger than you realise so that leaves a lot less than the alternators 110 A capacity. From that quote you will see that the charger requires an input of 13.3 V for it to operate and the highest voltage you have is 13.4 at the Anderson plug. I am trying to establish the voltage drop between the alternator/battery and the charger. If you have 1 V drop over the the supply cable then and the alternator voltage is 14.3 V then the charger is what is limiting the charging current and not the tugs electrical system.
How are you measuring the voltage and current? Are you using the remote control metering of the charger? What you need to do for me is to get someone with a multi meter and have then measure the battery voltage in the tug and the voltage at the input terminals of the charger.
Hi Peter,
Yes the BBW12120 model is installed in the unit and i'm getting the measurements using the internal monitoring and control device, a Victron Energy Colour Control GX.
I will see the auto electrician today to take the readings you listed. Will the unit need to be attached to the tug to accurately get the required readings?
-- Edited by Bitumin Surfers on Wednesday 4th of May 2016 07:52:34 AM
-- Edited by Bitumin Surfers on Wednesday 4th of May 2016 07:57:53 AM
Will he have to run two parallel wires to make a circuit between the tug battery and the DC to DC charger in addition to the installed wires?
ISTM that one could defeat this current limit, or at least increase it, by re-jumpering the charger for "regenerative braking" mode. I'm not suggesting that this would be a permanent solution, merely a temporary reconfiguration for testing purposes.
I have had recently installed in the unit (5th wheeler) is an Evolithium 180amp lithium iron battery management system (including batteries), Sterling DC-DC 120a DC to DC battery charger, Victron Energy 2000watt inverter, Victron Energy solar power management unit, the Victron Energy Colour Control GX monitoring unit and new wiring from the tugs battery to the units mains 240 volt system.
The total system was designed by Evolithium and installed by local auto electrician under the guidance of the Evolithium Manager to suit the installed appliances. The installed system is working extremely well other then this hickup with the incoming amperage from the alternator. Mains, Solar and DC to DC are all working but I would like / believe there should be greater amperage from the alternator as I don't want to carry a generator. Hopefully some light will be shed on this issue on Thursday when I have a different auto elec (this one specialising in Iveco units) doing a full field test on the alternator and taking measurements at either end of the new installed wiring from the alternator to the DC to DC charger. Any required setting changes will likely take place following these tests.
Will post results once obtained.