Adding a cooling fan to a improve the efficiency of a 3 way fridge on a Jayco Starcraft poptop.
OutbackMK said
11:00 PM Dec 6, 2015
Since I purchased the van I have noticed on a hot day it often struggles to keep the fridge temp below 7 degrees c or better.
After adding a shade awning over the vent no significant improvement was observed so I decided to add a cooling fan. The general consensus from this forum and others is to extract air rather than push air across the heat exchanger fins.
After a visit to Jaycar I returned with a large 12volt computer fan, on hindsight I should have purchased the smallest one available.
The original plan was to cable tie the fan to the exhaust vent, the option of solar power was certainly another thought however if the van is parked in a shady location fan operation will not be very good.
The fan pictured below draws about 380 mA so no big deal with a 120amp/hr battery and two 180 watt panels. Because it was too large I had to mount it on two bits of scrap aluminum screwed to the plywood backing above the fridge. The fan is about 4 1/2" square and although slightly smaller than the vent dimensions had insufficient clearance to use the cable tie fitting.About 31/2" would be more appropriate. Mounting the fan directly above the cooling fins however created as good airflow and the baffles above the fan direct the air straight out the vent.
Power for the motor is provided by piggy backing the connections from the cigar lighter socket fitted to the fridge cabinet and a small 20mm hole was drilled thru the timber to fit a rocker switch to turn the fan on and off.
We now have good air flow across the cooling fins and although only tested with 240v power so far I think it provides the best option to improve the efficiency of our fridge.
Freezer temperature is now -18c and fridge is 3c so very happy with a van temperature of 32c.
Vents are removed by little black sliding clips located on top slat push them towards to center then lower and remove vent..
Fan was mounted on two bit of scrap aluminum strip ex Bunnings.
Power was taken from lighter socket feed
Finished Job little toggle switch mounted below the lighter socket and Wingard amp.
-- Edited by OutbackMK on Sunday 6th of December 2015 11:01:22 PM
Tomcat said
04:55 AM Dec 7, 2015
Hello OutbackMK
Good job on the fan now come and do mine please. Thats a good set up providing it doesn't take too much power.
wasn_me said
07:46 AM Dec 7, 2015
Tidy install. What is 380 mA? Is that about one third of one amp? Cheers Pete
OutbackMK said
08:45 AM Dec 7, 2015
Yes Pete 1/3 amp and if it improves the efficiency of the fridge it could mean you save more than that on power used to keep the fridge cold. Surprising the amount of hot air coming out the vent (like an extended happy hour with all "contestants" well charged!) when its fan forced.
Cupie said
10:56 AM Dec 7, 2015
Sounds like you have done a good job with satisfactory results.
Perhaps you could finish up by checking that there are no areas around or on top of the fridge casing where hot air can accumulate. Fix that if there is a problem with wads of extra insulation material or even a physical barrier as well, to block the air from flowing around the fridge casing.
Then off to the tropics in summer to test it out & as a precaution take an Engel for your essential supplies. A short lesson for the missus on using an absorption fridge (ie. keeping the door open for the shortest possible time) might be a good idea, if you are game.
Aus-Kiwi said
11:48 AM Dec 7, 2015
Previous owner fitted a small fan with temp sensor . As I originally thought it wasn't working .. Saves on power .. I have thought about a solar fan on top cover / vent .. If it's cloudy ? Hopefully it's cooler ..
Lakers said
01:54 PM Dec 7, 2015
A good choice of fan Brian... the 120mm fan will spin at a lower RPM than the standard 80mm computer fans, therefore generating less noise... while (in most cases) moving more air. The 1/3 amp current draw is negligible. A good install...
Cheers
Greg
Long Weekend said
03:48 PM Dec 7, 2015
From the photo it looks like the fan is on a 45-degree angle.
Does anybody know if that is the optimum angle to both draw air up and exhaust it out the louvred vent?
Murray
KevKim37 said
06:11 PM Dec 7, 2015
People try fitting the fans down below the Cooling Assy but Most Times this causes Pressure flow in and around the Fridge walls which usually have a large gap around allowing even More Hot Air to affect the Fridge.Some older vans with 90 litre fridges don't even have a Louvre from the Top/Upper Rear edge of the Fridge to the Top of the Upper vent as advised by the Fridge Manufacturers causing even More Heat in Air Gap above the Fridge. Where you fitted the Fan is the Prime position for effective evacuation of Hot Air from the surrounds of the Fridge cabinet area. I tried the Let fan on our last 3way fridge van (didn't work effectively) then fitted dual 90mm fans zip tied to the Upper vent ,very successful. I also have a manually switched 80mm fan fitted internally on the top shelf pushing Cold air down and around the Fridge, definitely helps with quicker and more even internal temps in the Fridge compartment.
OutbackMK said
09:05 PM Dec 7, 2015
Fan is at a bit of an angle reasons were two fold:
1) Above the fan is a baffle (at 45 degrees) directing the airflow towards the vent so I fitted the fan at 90 degrees to the baffle. (theoretical reason)
2) Other reason was to allow me to drill and screw the bracket to the wood backing around the fridge.
Baz421 said
09:18 PM Dec 7, 2015
Good job.
I fitted a second fan 180ma computer type/size from Jaycar to ours (12V unit not 3 way) at compressor to improve airflow. Doesn't run as long now so good outcome.
briche said
12:21 PM Dec 8, 2015
Hi Baz421. That modification has been around now for awhile with mainly good results. i added a further mod 12 months ago and it improved the situation even better. By blocking off the output vent either side of the fan it improves the air flow across the evaporator tubes.
For example I tested the air coming in thru the bottom vent before and after. Before by hanging a sheet of A4 pepper in front of the bottom vent it would only just move it but after the mod it would pull the paper to the vent and hold it there.
quite noticeable improvements with the operation of the fridge.
one other mode to consider is to fill the gap around the fridge with insulation, helps to keep hot air reaching the fridge.
one further point to watch, check that the gap above the fridge is no more than 30 mm otherwise the hot air from the rear of the fridge will fill that void and make it harder to cool. If the gap is too great, once agin fill it it insulation.
hope all that helps. I have a better fridge now than I did before. I just realize I forgot to tell you what my fridge is, it's a dometic, 3 way.
All the best
Brian.
Baz421 said
04:24 PM Dec 8, 2015
briche wrote:
Hi Baz421. That modification has been around now for awhile with mainly good results. i added a further mod 12 months ago and it improved the situation even better. By blocking off the output vent either side of the fan it improves the air flow across the evaporator tubes.
For example I tested the air coming in thru the bottom vent before and after. Before by hanging a sheet of A4 pepper in front of the bottom vent it would only just move it but after the mod it would pull the paper to the vent and hold it there.
quite noticeable improvements with the operation of the fridge.
one other mode to consider is to fill the gap around the fridge with insulation, helps to keep hot air reaching the fridge.
one further point to watch, check that the gap above the fridge is no more than 30 mm otherwise the hot air from the rear of the fridge will fill that void and make it harder to cool. If the gap is too great, once agin fill it it insulation.
hope all that helps. I have a better fridge now than I did before. I just realize I forgot to tell you what my fridge is, it's a dometic, 3 way.
All the best
Brian.
Yes I did my first mod years ago when you had to wreck a PC to get a fan, now they are everywhere.
I too am considering your suggestion re blocking off the side gaps and only using the van in/out vents on the side.
Was 40 deg C yesterday and fridge was much more efficient.
Thanks for tips.
KevKim37 said
08:02 PM Dec 8, 2015
The larger 220 litre, 12 volt Compressor, Waeco White 2 door fridge/freezer is built with a 90mm computer fan fitted near the Compressor ex factory. The only change I did with that was turn fan around so it was Blowing Air over the Compressor and Not sucking it away from the unit.
Baz421 said
08:24 PM Dec 8, 2015
KevKim37 wrote:
The larger 220 litre, 12 volt Compressor, Waeco White 2 door fridge/freezer is built with a 90mm computer fan fitted near the Compressor ex factory. The only change I did with that was turn fan around so it was Blowing Air over the Compressor and Not sucking it away from the unit.
Strange that it was the opposite direction. Our Vitrifugo has a Danfoss compressor and the original fan blew across condenser cooling fins and toward compressor. The second fan I fitted boosted what was a weak airflow.
madaboutled said
10:50 AM Dec 9, 2015
Adding fan or two to extract hot air from the back of a 3 way fridge does work to a degree but improving the airflow inside the fridge can also help. On my old van with a 90 Lt 3 way upright fridge I added a small computer fan just below the freezer so it would blow down air into the fridge part. I also added a small contact switch to the door so the fan would turn off when the door was open. Result was contents in the fridge section were kept a lot cooler and the freezer didn't ice up as much.
Our motorhome has a 12v/240v 90Lt upright fridge and I'll be adding this mod to it soon because I think it would improve its running too as the freezer tends to ice up a bit over time.
jade46 said
12:54 PM Dec 9, 2015
This is a site showing another mod for the same problem.I like the fans he suggests ,Magnetic levitation bearings Very smooth and quite
Thanks for the excellent link,suppose I tried to re-invent the wheel however we all get a bit of a buzz from doing our own thing!
Will probably implement the internal fan as the next mod if this summer the beers start getting too warm, I cheat as the 50lt Waeco in the truck looks after the sherberts but still I have a electronic sensor (Jaycar) that I am using to monitor performance and will keep an eye on fridge temperatures.
jade46 said
06:58 AM Dec 10, 2015
I wasn't making any judgement OUTBACK MK just showing another way to" skin the cat " so as to speak Cheers DT
Cupie said
10:29 AM Dec 10, 2015
jade46 wrote:
This is a site showing another mod for the same problem.I like the fans he suggests ,Magnetic levitation bearings Very smooth and quite
Thanks for that link. An excellent description of what looks like a worthwhile mod.
Off to Jcar to get the bits. Will also get one of the larger fans for my power supply.
Long Weekend said
12:52 PM Dec 10, 2015
Thanks for the link DT Jade46. It presents everything in a simply manner.
(Previously nobody ever mentioned if the fans were at the bottom or top - ie; did they suck or blow - nor exactly where or how thermostats were installed.)
Anyway, I have begun ordering stuff. First items are stainless steel cable ties - reasoning that the heat of the pipe would quickly degrade nylon ties. Rather than piggy backing power from the wiring behind the cigar lighter socket I will use a 12V plug pack. There are power points alongside the refrigerator in my van for the fridge and microwave. Using a small power board I'll be able to run the plug pack. (The lighter socket is a couple of metres away, I would have to run wires around furniture and through holes, etc.)
Will order the other items on my next visit to Jaycar.
For those who have already installed a fan, I wonder if removing the bottom vent (temporally) would help by allowing more air to enter?
Murray
jade46 said
01:21 PM Dec 10, 2015
Please note I can take no credit for this. I have just passed on the link, this is not my work
KevinC said
10:13 PM Dec 10, 2015
Thanks OutbackMK.
I'd previously fitted a fan to my Freedom pop top years ago, but hadn't thought about it for the new Sterling. When I read your article I realized I have a similar configuration in the Sterling. So for the cost of an illuminated switch from Jaycar, and some scrap aluminium and wire, I've done what you did. I also used a pool noodle to seal along the back of the fridge cabinet. With the van parked in the shed, I can feel the increased airflow, so it has to be better than it was. The 12v socket is an easy place to get power because it's right beside the fridge.
Thanks again for a very useful post.
Aus-Kiwi said
11:12 PM Dec 10, 2015
My temp sensor reads ambient temps..
After reading above post about void above fridge I have sikoflexed a sheet of alloy in there ..
Yes it sure helps the drought effect..
Long Weekend said
11:46 AM Dec 13, 2015
So far planning for my installation is going well. A 12V plug pack, stainless steel cable ties are expected to arrive during the week. On Wednesday I'll drop into one of our local Jaycar stores and pick up the fan, thermostat, plus other incidentals like wire, connectors, fuse and holder, cable supports and so on.
I am thinking of putting an indicator light inside the van to show when the fan is on. Has anybody considered that?
Anyway, I have ordered a nice blue 12V indicator light on eBay although it is unlikely to arrive before we head off for our two week trip to Victoria. But it will be a simple job to retro fit the light on our return - if not used then I have only lost less than $4.
Murray
-- Edited by Long Weekend on Sunday 13th of December 2015 11:47:19 AM
Cupie said
08:59 PM Dec 13, 2015
Long Weekend wrote:
So far planning for my installation is going well. A 12V plug pack, stainless steel cable ties are expected to arrive during the week. On Wednesday I'll drop into one of our local Jaycar stores and pick up the fan, thermostat, plus other incidentals like wire, connectors, fuse and holder, cable supports and so on.
I am thinking of putting an indicator light inside the van to show when the fan is on. Has anybody considered that?
Anyway, I have ordered a nice blue 12V indicator light on eBay although it is unlikely to arrive before we head off for our two week trip to Victoria. But it will be a simple job to retro fit the light on our return - if not used then I have only lost less than $4.
Murray
-- Edited by Long Weekend on Sunday 13th of December 2015 11:47:19 AM
My fan is operated by a manual switch that is illuminated when on. Got it from Jcar of course.
I installed it in an electrical box above the fridge that also houses the fridge thermometer and water tank level indicator.
dorian said
09:42 AM Dec 14, 2015
Baz421 wrote:
KevKim37 wrote:
The larger 220 litre, 12 volt Compressor, Waeco White 2 door fridge/freezer is built with a 90mm computer fan fitted near the Compressor ex factory. The only change I did with that was turn fan around so it was Blowing Air over the Compressor and Not sucking it away from the unit.
Strange that it was the opposite direction. Our Vitrifugo has a Danfoss compressor and the original fan blew across condenser cooling fins and toward compressor. The second fan I fitted boosted what was a weak airflow.
It's not the same thing, but just yesterday I was experimenting with my CPU cooling fan in my old computer. Using the CPU's temperature sensor in conjunction with temperature monitoring software, I recorded 38C when the fan was drawing air away from the heatsink and 35-36C when the fan was blowing air onto the heatsink.
(Before I cleaned out the dust balls, the temperature was 43C. I'm now running CPUidle and the temperature has dropped to 27C. That's 1.5C above ambient.)
KevKim37 said
04:35 PM Dec 14, 2015
Baz maybe the Vitrifigo has the Triple core/Small type Condenser with the 120mm Cooling Fan I think it is, whereas our 13 yr old Waeco has a Full Length External Condenser from the Top to the Bottom exactly like all the Old Household fridges used to have before Cleanskins came into being.
Cheers Kev.
aussietraveller said
09:01 AM Dec 15, 2015
The issue of external heat on caravan fridges has been raised on a number of sites over the years and on numerous occasions one would think that companies like Jayco would take some notice of what their customers are saying and install a small fan at the back of fridges, the cost would be minimal especially when compared to a lot of the glitzy stuff they now put in vans, this stuff may look pretty but is it necessary.
Cupie said
09:22 AM Dec 15, 2015
aussietraveller wrote:
The issue of external heat on caravan fridges has been raised on a number of sites over the years and on numerous occasions one would think that companies like Jayco would take some notice of what their customers are saying and install a small fan at the back of fridges, the cost would be minimal especially when compared to a lot of the glitzy stuff they now put in vans, this stuff may look pretty but is it necessary.
Yes, you might be correct.
My fridge was poorly installed with the top vent too low, perhaps because I changed the spec for a larger than normal fridge. I think the twits in the factory left the vent at the height set for the smaller fridge.
Unfortunately I was not aware of the issue in those days or would have persued it during warranty. But that was 17 tears ago!
Since I purchased the van I have noticed on a hot day it often struggles to keep the fridge temp below 7 degrees c or better.
After adding a shade awning over the vent no significant improvement was observed so I decided to add a cooling fan. The general consensus from this forum and others is to extract air rather than push air across the heat exchanger fins.
After a visit to Jaycar I returned with a large 12volt computer fan, on hindsight I should have purchased the smallest one available.
The original plan was to cable tie the fan to the exhaust vent, the option of solar power was certainly another thought however if the van is parked in a shady location fan operation will not be very good.
The fan pictured below draws about 380 mA so no big deal with a 120amp/hr battery and two 180 watt panels. Because it was too large I had to mount it on two bits of scrap aluminum screwed to the plywood backing above the fridge. The fan is about 4 1/2" square and although slightly smaller than the vent dimensions had insufficient clearance to use the cable tie fitting. About 31/2" would be more appropriate. Mounting the fan directly above the cooling fins however created as good airflow and the baffles above the fan direct the air straight out the vent.
Power for the motor is provided by piggy backing the connections from the cigar lighter socket fitted to the fridge cabinet and a small 20mm hole was drilled thru the timber to fit a rocker switch to turn the fan on and off.
We now have good air flow across the cooling fins and although only tested with 240v power so far I think it provides the best option to improve the efficiency of our fridge.
Freezer temperature is now -18c and fridge is 3c so very happy with a van temperature of 32c.
Vents are removed by little black sliding clips located on top slat push them towards to center then lower and remove vent..
Fan was mounted on two bit of scrap aluminum strip ex Bunnings.
Power was taken from lighter socket feed
Finished Job little toggle switch mounted below the lighter socket and Wingard amp.
[URL=http://s898.photobucket.com/user/OutbackMK/media/Switch_zps0esapgpn.jpg.html]
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RL]
-- Edited by OutbackMK on Sunday 6th of December 2015 11:01:22 PM
Hello OutbackMK
Good job on the fan now come and do mine please. Thats a good set up providing it doesn't take too much power.
Sounds like you have done a good job with satisfactory results.
Perhaps you could finish up by checking that there are no areas around or on top of the fridge casing where hot air can accumulate. Fix that if there is a problem with wads of extra insulation material or even a physical barrier as well, to block the air from flowing around the fridge casing.
Then off to the tropics in summer to test it out & as a precaution take an Engel for your essential supplies. A short lesson for the missus on using an absorption fridge (ie. keeping the door open for the shortest possible time) might be a good idea, if you are game.
Cheers
Greg
Does anybody know if that is the optimum angle to both draw air up and exhaust it out the louvred vent?
Murray
People try fitting the fans down below the Cooling Assy but Most Times this causes Pressure flow in and around the Fridge walls which usually have a large gap around allowing even More Hot Air to affect the Fridge.Some older vans with 90 litre fridges don't even have a Louvre from the Top/Upper Rear edge of the Fridge to the Top of the Upper vent as advised by the Fridge Manufacturers causing even More Heat in Air Gap above the Fridge. Where you fitted the Fan is the Prime position for effective evacuation of Hot Air from the surrounds of the Fridge cabinet area. I tried the Let fan on our last 3way fridge van (didn't work effectively) then fitted dual 90mm fans zip tied to the Upper vent ,very successful. I also have a manually switched 80mm fan fitted internally on the top shelf pushing Cold air down and around the Fridge, definitely helps with quicker and more even internal temps in the Fridge compartment.
1) Above the fan is a baffle (at 45 degrees) directing the airflow towards the vent so I fitted the fan at 90 degrees to the baffle. (theoretical reason)
2) Other reason was to allow me to drill and screw the bracket to the wood backing around the fridge.
Good job.
I fitted a second fan 180ma computer type/size from Jaycar to ours (12V unit not 3 way) at compressor to improve airflow. Doesn't run as long now so good outcome.
Hi Baz421. That modification has been around now for awhile with mainly good results. i added a further mod 12 months ago and it improved the situation even better. By blocking off the output vent either side of the fan it improves the air flow across the evaporator tubes.
For example I tested the air coming in thru the bottom vent before and after. Before by hanging a sheet of A4 pepper in front of the bottom vent it would only just move it but after the mod it would pull the paper to the vent and hold it there.
quite noticeable improvements with the operation of the fridge.
one other mode to consider is to fill the gap around the fridge with insulation, helps to keep hot air reaching the fridge.
one further point to watch, check that the gap above the fridge is no more than 30 mm otherwise the hot air from the rear of the fridge will fill that void and make it harder to cool. If the gap is too great, once agin fill it it insulation.
hope all that helps. I have a better fridge now than I did before. I just realize I forgot to tell you what my fridge is, it's a dometic, 3 way.
All the best
Brian.
Yes I did my first mod years ago when you had to wreck a PC to get a fan, now they are everywhere.
I too am considering your suggestion re blocking off the side gaps and only using the van in/out vents on the side.
Was 40 deg C yesterday and fridge was much more efficient.
Thanks for tips.
The larger 220 litre, 12 volt Compressor, Waeco White 2 door fridge/freezer is built with a 90mm computer fan fitted near the Compressor ex factory. The only change I did with that was turn fan around so it was Blowing Air over the Compressor and Not sucking it away from the unit.
Strange that it was the opposite direction. Our Vitrifugo has a Danfoss compressor and the original fan blew across condenser cooling fins and toward compressor. The second fan I fitted boosted what was a weak airflow.
Adding fan or two to extract hot air from the back of a 3 way fridge does work to a degree but improving the airflow inside the fridge can also help. On my old van with a 90 Lt 3 way upright fridge I added a small computer fan just below the freezer so it would blow down air into the fridge part. I also added a small contact switch to the door so the fan would turn off when the door was open. Result was contents in the fridge section were kept a lot cooler and the freezer didn't ice up as much.
Our motorhome has a 12v/240v 90Lt upright fridge and I'll be adding this mod to it soon because I think it would improve its running too as the freezer tends to ice up a bit over time.
www.dreampod.net/boroma/fridgefan.html
Will probably implement the internal fan as the next mod if this summer the beers start getting too warm, I cheat as the 50lt Waeco in the truck looks after the sherberts but still I have a electronic sensor (Jaycar) that I am using to monitor performance and will keep an eye on fridge temperatures.
I wasn't making any judgement OUTBACK MK just showing another way to" skin the cat " so as to speak
Cheers
DT
Thanks for that link. An excellent description of what looks like a worthwhile mod.
Off to Jcar to get the bits. Will also get one of the larger fans for my power supply.
(Previously nobody ever mentioned if the fans were at the bottom or top - ie; did they suck or blow - nor exactly where or how thermostats were installed.)
Anyway, I have begun ordering stuff. First items are stainless steel cable ties - reasoning that the heat of the pipe would quickly degrade nylon ties. Rather than piggy backing power from the wiring behind the cigar lighter socket I will use a 12V plug pack. There are power points alongside the refrigerator in my van for the fridge and microwave. Using a small power board I'll be able to run the plug pack. (The lighter socket is a couple of metres away, I would have to run wires around furniture and through holes, etc.)
Will order the other items on my next visit to Jaycar.
For those who have already installed a fan, I wonder if removing the bottom vent (temporally) would help by allowing more air to enter?
Murray
I'd previously fitted a fan to my Freedom pop top years ago, but hadn't thought about it for the new Sterling. When I read your article I realized I have a similar configuration in the Sterling. So for the cost of an illuminated switch from Jaycar, and some scrap aluminium and wire, I've done what you did. I also used a pool noodle to seal along the back of the fridge cabinet. With the van parked in the shed, I can feel the increased airflow, so it has to be better than it was. The 12v socket is an easy place to get power because it's right beside the fridge.
Thanks again for a very useful post.
After reading above post about void above fridge I have sikoflexed a sheet of alloy in there ..
Yes it sure helps the drought effect..
So far planning for my installation is going well. A 12V plug pack, stainless steel cable ties are expected to arrive during the week. On Wednesday I'll drop into one of our local Jaycar stores and pick up the fan, thermostat, plus other incidentals like wire, connectors, fuse and holder, cable supports and so on.
I am thinking of putting an indicator light inside the van to show when the fan is on. Has anybody considered that?
Anyway, I have ordered a nice blue 12V indicator light on eBay although it is unlikely to arrive before we head off for our two week trip to Victoria. But it will be a simple job to retro fit the light on our return - if not used then I have only lost less than $4.
Murray
-- Edited by Long Weekend on Sunday 13th of December 2015 11:47:19 AM
My fan is operated by a manual switch that is illuminated when on. Got it from Jcar of course.
I installed it in an electrical box above the fridge that also houses the fridge thermometer and water tank level indicator.
It's not the same thing, but just yesterday I was experimenting with my CPU cooling fan in my old computer. Using the CPU's temperature sensor in conjunction with temperature monitoring software, I recorded 38C when the fan was drawing air away from the heatsink and 35-36C when the fan was blowing air onto the heatsink.
(Before I cleaned out the dust balls, the temperature was 43C. I'm now running CPUidle and the temperature has dropped to 27C. That's 1.5C above ambient.)
Baz maybe the Vitrifigo has the Triple core/Small type Condenser with the 120mm Cooling Fan I think it is, whereas our 13 yr old Waeco has a Full Length External Condenser from the Top to the Bottom exactly like all the Old Household fridges used to have before Cleanskins came into being.
Cheers Kev.
Yes, you might be correct.
My fridge was poorly installed with the top vent too low, perhaps because I changed the spec for a larger than normal fridge. I think the twits in the factory left the vent at the height set for the smaller fridge.
Unfortunately I was not aware of the issue in those days or would have persued it during warranty. But that was 17 tears ago!