Just been thinking about this; if you were to use a WDH with any of the Rotational hitches in the case of a incident,(van roll over) I think the WDH would work against the principal of rotational the hitch. The WDH bar on the high side at time of roll over would tend to lift that side of the tug as well, defeating the purpose of the rotational hitch.
Your thoughts.
JC.
moamajohn said
08:28 PM Oct 18, 2014
In the case of a rollover etc it generally means a write off at worst ! It comes under the banner of who bloody cares why or how !By the time an assessor has turned up the said tug and van are in 2 different places.
justcruisin01 said
09:07 PM Oct 18, 2014
moamajohn wrote:
In the case of a rollover etc it generally means a write off at worst ! It comes under the banner of who bloody cares why or how !By the time an assessor has turned up the said tug and van are in 2 different places.
Sounds like you dont understand the function of a rotational hitch.
Peter_n_Margaret said
04:03 AM Oct 19, 2014
The primary purpose of a rotational hitch is to allow full articulation of the trailer without imposing excesive loads on the hitch, the tow bar or the tug. A rotational hitch can not perform its function fully with a WDH installed.
I have rolled a trailer and boat on the Gibb River Road. There is no question in my view that if a rotational hitch (a Tregg) had not been fitted, then the tug would have rolled too, but it did not.
If you are going seriously 'off road' it is necessary to remove the WDH, in my view. You will also need to reduce towing speed substantially to maintain safety levels.
Cheers, Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 19th of October 2014 04:04:35 AM
Dougwe said
09:22 AM Oct 19, 2014
I was going to keep out of this as I am at present not experienced enough towing larger rigs.
I did think though when I read JC's comment that if the hitch rotated there would be less chance of taking the towing vehicle with the van if the van rolled. From reading some comments, that thought still stands.
I'm thinking of getting a "McHitch" fitted to my new Den in the near future for similar reasons. PLEASE.....THAT IS NOT OPEN FOR DISCUSSION HERE IN JC's THREAD unless he starts it off course.
Good post JC.......as usual.
oldboar said
09:58 AM Oct 19, 2014
Actually found that I couldn't use the WDH with the McHitch on the truck, Jim. Found the chains actually came off in one instance. Not a problem as with the truck the WDH was unnecessary anyway. Pretty sure there was no problem with the McHitch &WDH when we had the BT50. As you say though, having the WDH bars fitted certainly increase the risk of a van rollover taking the tug with it when a rotational hitch is fitted.
Darrell
justcruisin01 said
11:53 AM Oct 19, 2014
Thanks Peter,Doug & Darrell. Thats exactly how I viewed that combination a will not be using WDH with the McHitch.
As for the who bloody cares how or why,try telling that to the law a your insurance company.
If I was ever in that situation I would want to know the how a why so I didnt do it again.
With many yrs in the car game a handling wrecks I got into the habbit of asking the victims as to what went wrong; no one ever had an answer a many didnt even care.
We wonder why we have these problems;its a no care attitude.
JC.
wendyv said
12:29 PM Oct 19, 2014
When we had the van, used a Hayman Reece Weight Distribution system with the Tregg coupling of the van. We were advised, from the start, to remove the bars when going off the bitumen.
justcruisin01 said
02:13 PM Oct 19, 2014
Dont have to be off the black top to have a roll over.
Peter_n_Margaret said
02:55 PM Oct 19, 2014
justcruisin01 wrote:
Dont have to be off the black top to have a roll over.
But most roll overs on the black top are caused by the inherent instability of the combination (and excessive speed), I suggest.
Removing a WDH will increase that instability.
Seems to me that it is better to prevent a roll over than to save the tug if one happens.
Using a WDH on the black top and removing it only for serious (and slow) off road work seems to me to be the most sensible compromise.
Cheers,
Peter
oldboar said
04:11 PM Oct 19, 2014
Inherent instability tends to disappear when your tug is heavier than the van, the van is properly loaded AND the tug driver has half a towing brain. Jim & I easily qualify on all three counts.
Darrell
justcruisin01 said
04:33 PM Oct 19, 2014
Must agree that using a truck as a tug is superior to a standard vehicle.
The much larger foot print on the road combined with dual wheels a the additional weight there is no feed back from the van on those uneven roads,which there are plenty off.
This means less workload a fatigue on the driver at the end of the day.
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:36 PM Oct 19, 2014
oldboar wrote:
Inherent instability tends to disappear when your tug is heavier than the van, ....... snip .....
I disagree.
It may be less apparent and less likely to 'bite' you, but the instability of the caravan remains as it was/is.
The only way to reduce the inherent instability of the caravan is to alter the causes of that instability.....for example, concentrate the mass of the caravan closer to the centre of the caravan.
Cheers,
Peter
wendyv said
05:08 PM Oct 20, 2014
Our rig was a Landrover Defender 110 Tdi pulling a single axle small Trakmaster Kimberley - when fully loaded, and with full water and gas, this came in well under 2 tonnes. Had polyairs inside the coil springs at rear of LR. I do not think there was any problem with load distribution. But at highway towing speed, without the WDH, there was a sensation a bit like a boat going over small waves. It was not so much an instability thing, just not totally comfortable feeling. The hitch eliminated that.
justcruisin01 said
09:49 PM Oct 20, 2014
wendyv wrote:
Our rig was a Landrover Defender 110 Tdi pulling a single axle small Trakmaster Kimberley - when fully loaded, and with full water and gas, this came in well under 2 tonnes. Had polyairs inside the coil springs at rear of LR. I do not think there was any problem with load distribution. But at highway towing speed, without the WDH, there was a sensation a bit like a boat going over small waves. It was not so much an instability thing, just not totally comfortable feeling. The hitch eliminated that.
I used the WDH with the cruiser, but found with the truck it does not sag enough to get any load on the bars, space the chassis brackets on the van up 25mm, ran that for a while & could not pick any difference so have done away with them.
Have just done a trip up Qld coast, accross the top, Barkley to Darwin, down the centre to Adelaide & back to the NSW mid nth coast, no problems & never felt any thing wrong at any time. All types of road conditions, a bit of dirt, extremly stable.
JC.
Peter_n_Margaret said
01:53 AM Oct 21, 2014
justcruisin01 wrote:
I used the WDH with the cruiser, but found with the truck it does not sag enough to get any load on the bars, space the chassis brackets on the van up 25mm, ran that for a while & could not pick any difference so have done away with them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JC, I think you misunderstand the purpose and function of the WDH.
It is not there to "lift" the back of the tug (although that is likely to be a secondary effect).
The primary purpose is to transfer weight to the front wheels in order that the tug weight distribution is more even and the front tyres maintain proper traction with the road.
Cheers,
Peter
oldboar said
07:24 PM Oct 21, 2014
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
oldboar wrote:
Inherent instability tends to disappear when your tug is heavier than the van, ....... snip .....
I disagree.
It may be less apparent and less likely to 'bite' you, but the instability of the caravan remains as it was/is.
The only way to reduce the inherent instability of the caravan is to alter the causes of that instability.....for example, concentrate the mass of the caravan closer to the centre of the caravan.
Cheers,
Peter
Umm, silly me. There I was thinking that my comment re the van being properly loaded meant the same thing. I guess some people don't read the whole post.
Darrell
oldboar said
07:26 PM Oct 21, 2014
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
justcruisin01 wrote:
I used the WDH with the cruiser, but found with the truck it does not sag enough to get any load on the bars, space the chassis brackets on the van up 25mm, ran that for a while & could not pick any difference so have done away with them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JC, I think you misunderstand the purpose and function of the WDH.
It is not there to "lift" the back of the tug (although that is likely to be a secondary effect).
The primary purpose is to transfer weight to the front wheels in order that the tug weight distribution is more even and the front tyres maintain proper traction with the road.
Cheers,
Peter
Wow Jim, sounds like neither of us knows anything. Guess years of towing count for nothing.
Darrell
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:18 PM Oct 21, 2014
And sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
Cheers,
Peter
oldboar said
07:42 AM Oct 22, 2014
Too true, Peter, but more intelligent than some comments. Have to date done over 25,000km dragging my 22' van with Isuzu NPR200 truck using McHitch rotational hitch without WDH. Not a hint of instability at any point. Perhaps in the minds of some, I've been lucky but personally I think I may have a rough idea what I'm doing.
Darrell
Peter_n_Margaret said
04:25 PM Oct 22, 2014
When a caravan or trailer is connected to a vehicle, there is an inevitable addition of weight to the rear of the vehicle. The added weight can alter the handling of the vehicle due to the imbalance of weight from the front to the rear.
This can pose serious safety concerns, especially at high speeds. Less weight over the front axle reduces braking efficiency and steering control, and combined with the added weight at the rear, can cause the vehicle to lose control.
LMAO Peter, I've read all the HR info as well, needed the WDH when I was towing with a ute with standard rear suspension. The operative word in the second & third paragraphs is "CAN". At no stage does it say "WILL". When towing with a truck as distinct from a light vehicle, the truck is designed for a heavily loaded back axle ie tonnes. Two or three hundred kilos on the hitch produces negligible effect. Just another one of those cases where what is written isn't necessarily gospel. As is usual, actual experience is required to either prove or disprove equipment necessity in each case.
Darrell
justcruisin01 said
09:15 PM Oct 22, 2014
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
justcruisin01 wrote:
I used the WDH with the cruiser, but found with the truck it does not sag enough to get any load on the bars, space the chassis brackets on the van up 25mm, ran that for a while & could not pick any difference so have done away with them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------JC, I think you misunderstand the purpose and function of the WDH.
It is not there to "lift" the back of the tug (although that is likely to be a secondary effect).
The primary purpose is to transfer weight to the front wheels in order that the tug weight distribution is more even and the front tyres maintain proper traction with the road.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter, I know exactly the purpose of a WDH, face the fact that when a combination sits so level that it is impossibile to set weight on the bars then its unachievable.
If you are going to suggest adjusting the angle of the tow hitch to achieve this then you have greatly reduced the working angle of a tow ball, & we know what happens when the ball reaches the end of working angle.
Have a look at heavy transport trailers, flat tops, car trailers ,pig trailers, machinery, do you see them using a WDH?
I know that they are a must with the smaller tugs, but with the trucks its not possibile.
Maybe the later vans with a recessed hitch (hitch mounted at the bottom of the rails) with a 150mm chassis may be achievable.
JC.
justcruisin01 said
09:17 PM Oct 22, 2014
TAJ wrote:
did a short trip without wdh then put them on
it was adifferent feeling pajero steering normal
and took away the rocking feeling
will NOT travel without them on
suenray
Yes, thats exactly what I would have expected but we cannot compare a Pajero with a truck.
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:16 PM Oct 23, 2014
justcruisin01 wrote:
Have a look at heavy transport trailers, flat tops, car trailers ,pig trailers, machinery, do you see them using a WDH?
No they don't use WDHs because they don't have overhung hitches (a long way behind the axle) combined with high hitch loads which is the combination that causes the instability.
Cheers,
Peter
oldboar said
05:58 PM Oct 23, 2014
OMG Peter, guess I must bow to your better judgement & give up trying to reason with such a knowledgable gent. Obviously towing an off road camper & driving an off road motorhome produces far more experience with towing a caravan behind a truck via a rotational hitch than my 25 thousand odd kilometres over the past months with exactly that outfit. Guess you must be a mechanical Expert in much the same class as a certain electrical expert.
Darrell
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:00 PM Oct 23, 2014
Darryl, if attacking others is your only contribution here, this forum can do without it.
Or maybe you should argue with Mr Newton instead.
Guess you must be a mechanical Expert in much the same class as a certain electrical expert.
Darrell
well he has been proven wrong on several ocassions as wellalso appears that my 60yrs of operation tractors;farm machinery of many types including towed units.along with many types of earth moving equipment including trucks a recovery of wrecks doesnt count for any knowledge of whether a combination feels right or not.
Ive also been towing trailers.boats a caravans all my live a still have a clean record.
Its very clear that the only opinion here that you wish to here peter is your own.I have better things in life to do than waste time with poeple who cannot acept other persons opinions a experiences.
-- Edited by justcruisin01 on Thursday 23rd of October 2014 10:02:09 PM
Just been thinking about this; if you were to use a WDH with any of the Rotational hitches in the case of a incident,(van roll over) I think the WDH would work against the principal of rotational the hitch. The WDH bar on the high side at time of roll over would tend to lift that side of the tug as well, defeating the purpose of the rotational hitch.
Your thoughts.
JC.
Sounds like you dont understand the function of a rotational hitch.
The primary purpose of a rotational hitch is to allow full articulation of the trailer without imposing excesive loads on the hitch, the tow bar or the tug.
A rotational hitch can not perform its function fully with a WDH installed.
I have rolled a trailer and boat on the Gibb River Road.
There is no question in my view that if a rotational hitch (a Tregg) had not been fitted, then the tug would have rolled too, but it did not.
If you are going seriously 'off road' it is necessary to remove the WDH, in my view.
You will also need to reduce towing speed substantially to maintain safety levels.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 19th of October 2014 04:04:35 AM
I was going to keep out of this as I am at present not experienced enough towing larger rigs.
I did think though when I read JC's comment that if the hitch rotated there would be less chance of taking the towing vehicle with the van if the van rolled. From reading some comments, that thought still stands.
I'm thinking of getting a "McHitch" fitted to my new Den in the near future for similar reasons. PLEASE.....THAT IS NOT OPEN FOR DISCUSSION HERE IN JC's THREAD unless he starts it off course.
Good post JC.......as usual.
Darrell
Thanks Peter,Doug & Darrell. Thats exactly how I viewed that combination a will not be using WDH with the McHitch.
As for the who bloody cares how or why,try telling that to the law a your insurance company.
If I was ever in that situation I would want to know the how a why so I didnt do it again.
With many yrs in the car game a handling wrecks I got into the habbit of asking the victims as to what went wrong; no one ever had an answer a many didnt even care.
We wonder why we have these problems;its a no care attitude.
JC.
Dont have to be off the black top to have a roll over.
But most roll overs on the black top are caused by the inherent instability of the combination (and excessive speed), I suggest.
Removing a WDH will increase that instability.
Seems to me that it is better to prevent a roll over than to save the tug if one happens.
Using a WDH on the black top and removing it only for serious (and slow) off road work seems to me to be the most sensible compromise.
Cheers,
Peter
Darrell
Must agree that using a truck as a tug is superior to a standard vehicle.
The much larger foot print on the road combined with dual wheels a the additional weight there is no feed back from the van on those uneven roads,which there are plenty off.
This means less workload a fatigue on the driver at the end of the day.
I disagree.
It may be less apparent and less likely to 'bite' you, but the instability of the caravan remains as it was/is.
The only way to reduce the inherent instability of the caravan is to alter the causes of that instability.....for example, concentrate the mass of the caravan closer to the centre of the caravan.
Cheers,
Peter
I used the WDH with the cruiser, but found with the truck it does not sag enough to get any load on the bars, space the chassis brackets on the van up 25mm, ran that for a while & could not pick any difference so have done away with them.
Have just done a trip up Qld coast, accross the top, Barkley to Darwin, down the centre to Adelaide & back to the NSW mid nth coast, no problems & never felt any thing wrong at any time. All types of road conditions, a bit of dirt, extremly stable.
JC.
Umm, silly me. There I was thinking that my comment re the van being properly loaded meant the same thing. I guess some people don't read the whole post.
Darrell
Wow Jim, sounds like neither of us knows anything. Guess years of towing count for nothing.
Darrell
Cheers,
Peter
Darrell
http://www.haymanreese.com.au/download/understanding-weight-distribution-and-sway-control
Cheers,
Peter
did a short trip without wdh then put them on
it was adifferent feeling pajero steering normal
and took away the rocking feeling
will NOT travel without them on
suenray
Darrell
Peter, I know exactly the purpose of a WDH, face the fact that when a combination sits so level that it is impossibile to set weight on the bars then its unachievable.
If you are going to suggest adjusting the angle of the tow hitch to achieve this then you have greatly reduced the working angle of a tow ball, & we know what happens when the ball reaches the end of working angle.
Have a look at heavy transport trailers, flat tops, car trailers ,pig trailers, machinery, do you see them using a WDH?
I know that they are a must with the smaller tugs, but with the trucks its not possibile.
Maybe the later vans with a recessed hitch (hitch mounted at the bottom of the rails) with a 150mm chassis may be achievable.
JC.
Yes, thats exactly what I would have expected but we cannot compare a Pajero with a truck.
No they don't use WDHs because they don't have overhung hitches (a long way behind the axle) combined with high hitch loads which is the combination that causes the instability.
Cheers,
Peter
Darrell
Or maybe you should argue with Mr Newton instead.
Cheers,
Peter
well he has been proven wrong on several ocassions as wellalso appears that my 60yrs of operation tractors;farm machinery of many types including towed units.along with many types of earth moving equipment including trucks a recovery of wrecks doesnt count for any knowledge of whether a combination feels right or not.
Ive also been towing trailers.boats a caravans all my live a still have a clean record.
Its very clear that the only opinion here that you wish to here peter is your own.I have better things in life to do than waste time with poeple who cannot acept other persons opinions a experiences.
-- Edited by justcruisin01 on Thursday 23rd of October 2014 10:02:09 PM