Have an issue with RCD tripping constantly. Have disconnected all appliances and still have the issue. Started to do a bit of fault finding, found that the neutral and the earth seem to be a continuos circuit? The test that I performed was with a multimeter, testing for circuits of continuity. I Put the red wire of the multimeter on the black wire and the other wire to the earth and had the multimeter beep to show that it had continuity. Should this be the case?
Hope you understand? Looking forward to your help.
Regards Stuart
KFT said
10:47 PM Sep 11, 2014
G'day Stuart,
firstly is the extension lead disconnected when you did this test? if not you need to do that and test again.
secondly, make sure you have unplugged EVERY appliance such as fan forced oven, HWS, battery charger, microwave, fridge, TV.
this should only leave the air-con which will likely be hardwired.
what result do you get now?
it is possible there is a fault in the air-con or somewhere in the van. Have any items been screwed to walls recently?
we can work through it once you confirm the above.
frank
Aus-Kiwi said
12:41 AM Sep 12, 2014
Don't forget the rang hood if there is one ??
SnowT said
12:46 AM Sep 12, 2014
Check your Power Lead that is Plugged into the Van..
Has it gotten WET...?
And yes you do need to unplug everything....
Juergen
Aus-Kiwi said
12:52 AM Sep 12, 2014
Where is the RCD ? In the van or home ( outside )
Need to check with temp earth !!
patrolst said
09:10 AM Sep 12, 2014
If you don't know what you are doing get an electrician.
oldtrack123 said
09:15 AM Sep 12, 2014
HI
A multi meter will be of litle use, & could be dangerous in inexpereinced hands with 240V
Use a step by step approach
IF it is the RCD in the Van tripping
[1]ensure absolutely every thing in the van is switched "off "at the Outlet switchs, including battery charger, lights. van MAIN switch etc .
[2]connect van to mains power & turn on power, does the RCD trip?
[3]Switch van MAIN switch "ON" does the RCD trip?
[4]Turn on each appliance , light, etc, one at a time when, if, the RCD trips it is possible the last turned on that is the problem
[5]Turn OFF ALL others,but leave the last one" ON" then reset the RCD if it still trips that last one has a fault
Come back with the results& we may be able to go further
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 09:22:11 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 09:25:05 AM
gooba53 said
09:50 AM Sep 12, 2014
Thanks all. Frank :- extension lead disconnected. All appliances disconnected. No item screwed in recently. We have had this problem for ages. We changed the circuit breaker, the tripping stopped for a while, but it has returned , now it is constantly tripping.
Aus-Kiwi :- Range hood 12v . RCD in van. Not sure when you said check temp. If you mean wire, it's ambient .
Juergen:- Have tried several different power leads, my own and others.
Jim:- yes.
Peter Q :- Did all the things you suggest, but don't get a chance to do the analytical stage because as soon as I turn the power on it trips. So I can't test individual appliances.
Looks like either a fault in the aircon or the wiring circuit?
Stuart
dorian said
09:53 AM Sep 12, 2014
IMHO, it would be advisable to first test the van in the absence of power.
To this end, I would disconnect the van from the mains, and then measure the resistances between earth and each of the active and neutral terminals while following the instructions in [3], [4] and [5]. This will not provide a definitive result, but it will at least detect any obvious resistive leak.
KFT said
09:55 AM Sep 12, 2014
Thanks Stuart,
it looks like you will need an electrician to disconnect the air-con and do some fault finding. A caravan repair place would likely know a sparky with relevant caravan skills who can successfully find and fix the fault.
frank
gooba53 said
10:10 AM Sep 12, 2014
Frank and Dorian :- We are taking the van back to the makers,but not till end of month. Dorian I reckon that's what they will do. I've just got one of those minds that want/need to understand why these problems would be occurring. If it was an obvious solution I'd have a go at it and my son-in-law, an electrician, has offered to help. But it sounds like they might have to take the walls off and check the wiring. as I say, I just want some understanding of what might be the problem.
Thanks for your thoughts
Stuart
Phil C said
10:25 AM Sep 12, 2014
Hi
The circuit you have between earth and neutral MAY be the MEN link. If this is in the caravan it shouldnt be (AS3001). So if you get a short between neutral and earth with ALL disconnected it may be this link. OR...
I had the same issue, if you have been running your airconditioner if its an aircommand ibis there is a fault when the holding tank fills with run off water, causes the RCD to trip. I had to isolate my aircon via a circuit breaker.
So, I strongly suggest you get a sparky to megger test the van, Im betting its the same aircon issue. Get the sparky to put a double gang 16C breaker as a new circuit for the aircon (pig of job).
Good luck
KFT said
10:35 AM Sep 12, 2014
Stuart, there is a lot of testing can be done to isolate the fault before walls need to come off.
Get your son in law to do some testing, check the air-con with it disconnected and check the van again with the air=con disc. If the fault in the van remains you will need to pull a few outlets off and check each loop separately starting with the first leg from the rcd. I would also disc the rcd and check again in case the rcd is the fault.
PhilC there should be no MEN link in a van under normal conditions. any EN link should only be a fault or a faulty appliance that is still connected.
frank
oldtrack123 said
10:42 AM Sep 12, 2014
gooba53 wrote:
Thanks all. Frank :- extension lead disconnected. All appliances disconnected. No item screwed in recently. We have had this problem for ages. We changed the circuit breaker, the tripping stopped for a while, but it has returned , now it is constantly tripping.
Aus-Kiwi :- Range hood 12v . RCD in van. Not sure when you said check temp. If you mean wire, it's ambient .
Juergen:- Have tried several different power leads, my own and others.
Jim:- yes.
Peter Q :- Did all the things you suggest, but don't get a chance to do the analytical stage because as soon as I turn the power on it trips. So I can't test individual appliances.
Looks like either a fault in the aircon or the wiring circuit?
Stuart
Hi Stuart
Just to be clear
The VAN RCD trips as soon as you turn the VAN main switch with power connected ???
IF ALL electical appliances are turned OFF AT their SWITCHES, It does indicate a wiring fault
But the Air con SHOULD also have it's own isolating switch, It should be possible to isolate it !!!!
A fault in the extension lead should NOT cause the VAN RCD to trip
Back to your continuity test with the multi meter where did you do the actual test?? & did the meter beep continiously??
If it beeps continiously, it indicates a near dead short, not just a bit of water leakage
.There should not be a link between EITHER line & EARTH pin within the van IN AUS
NewZealand is different , yes !
Since you have has a similar problem before, I suggest a full check up of all visable wiring including. removing switches outlets etc for inspection of wiring
Remember, Overload CBS & RCDs do not give full protection against fires
PeterQ
.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:53:30 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:57:53 AM
KFT said
10:47 AM Sep 12, 2014
In most vans these days the main switch is also the RCBO, so if a fault does exist you cannot power anything up.
frank
Phil C said
10:48 AM Sep 12, 2014
Most of the new vans I have seen have one RCBO that handles all the GPOs, aircon etc, to my surprise when I first got our van the aircon was hard wired to this RCBO and all other appliances via a GPO and plug set.
I very much doubt there is a MEN link in there as there is no place to put one. That was my bad oopppss.... thats what I get from opening my gob and putting both feet in....
None the less this is still very annoying and needs a fix for Stuart, I very much doubt its a cable fault.. but keeping an open mind.
Stuart, what breed of caravan is it and how old?
-- Edited by Phil C on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:50:53 AM
-- Edited by Phil C on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:55:26 AM
deverall11 said
10:53 AM Sep 12, 2014
Check your hot water. If the element has blown it will give you these results.
Larry
gooba53 said
11:01 AM Sep 12, 2014
Phil:- haven't been running aircon, at all, for hot or cold air.
Frank:- glad removing walls may be a bit down the track. Got son-in-law coming down next weekend so may have some more info then? We have already had the RCD replaced so that shouldn't be the issue???
Peter:- yes, van trips as soon as I turn the van main switch on with power connected. I can't locate a separate aircon isolating switch. Yes, meter beeped continuously. I took several power points off the wall and checked behind them. No loose wires, was checking continuity. I have been made aware now that the neutral and earth are connected at the RCD therefore the continuos beeping is explained.
Stuart
oldtrack123 said
11:02 AM Sep 12, 2014
deverall11 wrote:
Check your hot water. If the element has blown it will give you these results. Larry
HI
Not if the ho****er is turned" OFF" and only if the element has shorted to the sheath
-
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 11:18:50 AM
KFT said
11:12 AM Sep 12, 2014
Stuart
you say: I have been made aware now that the neutral and earth are connected at the RCD therefore the continuos beeping is explained.
There should not be a deliberate connection between earth and "neutral" here.
frank
oldtrack123 said
11:15 AM Sep 12, 2014
gooba53 wrote:
I have been made aware now that the neutral and earth are connected at the RCD therefore the continuos beeping is explained.
Stuart
HI Stuart
Is the VAN an Aust van ? or a NZ van?
IF an Aus van OR a NZ van being used in Aus there should be NO connection between EIHER LINE & EARTHING system ANYWHERE in the van !!.
Also if a NZ van being used in Aus, there could be other problems
PeterQ.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 11:19:59 AM
gooba53 said
11:27 AM Sep 12, 2014
Gas hot water system.
Australian van.
Thank you so much for such an interesting conversation everyone . It's really appreciated!!
I think this is a bit beyond me, so I'll leave it to the experts. I'll let you know how I go, but not taking van back till end of month. Will update you then.
Thanks again!! Regards Stuart
Phil C said
01:47 PM Sep 12, 2014
gooba53 wrote: I have been made aware now that the neutral and earth are connected at the RCD therefore the continuos beeping is explained.
Stuart
HI Stuart
Is the VAN an Aust van ? or a NZ van?
IF an Aus van OR a NZ van being used in Aus there should be NO connection between EIHER LINE & EARTHING system ANYWHERE in the van !!.
Also if a NZ van being used in Aus, there could be other problems
PeterQ.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 11:19:59 AM Agree with PeterQ. Good point about NZ van.
OK aircon is off the menu. Still a good puzzle to play with.
PeterQ, how likely is it to be the RCD and why would there be a link at the RCD?
Its going to be interesting to see the outcome of this.
Cheers all
-- Edited by Phil C on Friday 12th of September 2014 01:48:36 PM
oldtrack123 said
02:25 PM Sep 12, 2014
Hi Phil
There should not be any link between either line & the earthing system in the VAN ,with Ausralian vans
Having one ,could lead to RCD tripping if the input polarity was incorrect .
New Zealand do have a rquirement for ALL vans to have a current cert of fitness
One of the requirements is to have correct polarity,including at ALL supply outlets
That also allows the use of SINGLE pole switching in NZ
In Aus, the polarity of 3pin sockets ,was not even a recommendtion for many many years .
I doubt it is the RCD as the problem has occurred before , but it can not be ruled out.
What I do suspect is an intermitent fault ,that has now become permanent.
PeterQ
Phil C said
02:31 PM Sep 12, 2014
Its a tricky one PeterQ.
Would love to get in there with my megger.
Cheers mate
Big Gorilla said
03:00 PM Sep 12, 2014
I'm really hesitant to continue giving advice to members on rectifying faults in 240 volt installations. Apart from the fact it's illegal for unlicensed persons to work on 240 volt installations, there is always the danger of electrocution for the inexperienced. My suggestion is have a Licensed Electrician look at the problem for you...
Phil C said
03:33 PM Sep 12, 2014
I do agree with Gorilla, Im probably guilty of this as well. Will have to watch what Im saying.
Get a licensed sparky to do the work, and get a certificate of compliance, covers the nether regions in case of an insurance claim.
Safe travels
KFT said
07:41 PM Sep 12, 2014
Stuart did mention his son in law is an electrician and he is going to look at the problem
Aus-Kiwi said
10:36 PM Sep 12, 2014
You should know what temporary earth is .. The best way to check polarity with test lamps.. Any leakage from active or neutral with trip the RCD.. So there can't be MEN after the RCD .. The SHOULD be double pole idolater switches on water heater/ maybe not on air conditioning ? So even if it's turned off .. It will trip the RCD.. There's other ways , things to check but must be done by qual elect person..
seems there is neutral - earth polarity issue??
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:42:50 PM
oldtrack123 said
10:50 PM Sep 12, 2014
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
You should know what temporary earth is .. The best way to check polarity with test lamps.. Any leakage from active or neutral with trip the RCD.. So there can't be MEN after the RCD .. The SHOULD be double pole idolater switches on water heater/ maybe not on air conditioning ? So even if it's turned off .. It will trip the RCD.. There's other ways , things to check but must be done by qual elect person..
seems there is neutral - earth polarity issue??
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:42:50 PM
Personally I would not suggest to anyone who is not electrically qualified to attempt ANY live testing, be that with test lamps or multi meter
Have an issue with RCD tripping constantly. Have disconnected all appliances and still have the issue. Started to do a bit of fault finding, found that the neutral and the earth seem to be a continuos circuit? The test that I performed was with a multimeter, testing for circuits of continuity. I Put the red wire of the multimeter on the black wire and the other wire to the earth and had the multimeter beep to show that it had continuity. Should this be the case?
Hope you understand? Looking forward to your help.
Regards Stuart
firstly is the extension lead disconnected when you did this test? if not you need to do that and test again.
secondly, make sure you have unplugged EVERY appliance such as fan forced oven, HWS, battery charger, microwave, fridge, TV.
this should only leave the air-con which will likely be hardwired.
what result do you get now?
it is possible there is a fault in the air-con or somewhere in the van. Have any items been screwed to walls recently?
we can work through it once you confirm the above.
frank
Has it gotten WET...?
And yes you do need to unplug everything....
Juergen
Need to check with temp earth !!
If you don't know what you are doing get an electrician.
HI
A multi meter will be of litle use, & could be dangerous in inexpereinced hands with 240V
Use a step by step approach
IF it is the RCD in the Van tripping
[1]ensure absolutely every thing in the van is switched "off "at the Outlet switchs, including battery charger, lights. van MAIN switch etc .
[2]connect van to mains power & turn on power, does the RCD trip?
[3]Switch van MAIN switch "ON" does the RCD trip?
[4]Turn on each appliance , light, etc, one at a time when, if, the RCD trips it is possible the last turned on that is the problem
[5]Turn OFF ALL others,but leave the last one" ON" then reset the RCD if it still trips that last one has a fault
Come back with the results& we may be able to go further
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 09:22:11 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 09:25:05 AM
Thanks all. Frank :- extension lead disconnected. All appliances disconnected. No item screwed in recently. We have had this problem for ages. We changed the circuit breaker, the tripping stopped for a while, but it has returned , now it is constantly tripping.
Aus-Kiwi :- Range hood 12v . RCD in van. Not sure when you said check temp. If you mean wire, it's ambient .
Juergen:- Have tried several different power leads, my own and others.
Jim:- yes.
Peter Q :- Did all the things you suggest, but don't get a chance to do the analytical stage because as soon as I turn the power on it trips. So I can't test individual appliances.
Looks like either a fault in the aircon or the wiring circuit?
Stuart
To this end, I would disconnect the van from the mains, and then measure the resistances between earth and each of the active and neutral terminals while following the instructions in [3], [4] and [5]. This will not provide a definitive result, but it will at least detect any obvious resistive leak.
it looks like you will need an electrician to disconnect the air-con and do some fault finding. A caravan repair place would likely know a sparky with relevant caravan skills who can successfully find and fix the fault.
frank
Frank and Dorian :- We are taking the van back to the makers,but not till end of month. Dorian I reckon that's what they will do. I've just got one of those minds that want/need to understand why these problems would be occurring. If it was an obvious solution I'd have a go at it and my son-in-law, an electrician, has offered to help. But it sounds like they might have to take the walls off and check the wiring. as I say, I just want some understanding of what might be the problem.
Thanks for your thoughts
Stuart
The circuit you have between earth and neutral MAY be the MEN link. If this is in the caravan it shouldnt be (AS3001). So if you get a short between neutral and earth with ALL disconnected it may be this link. OR...
I had the same issue, if you have been running your airconditioner if its an aircommand ibis there is a fault when the holding tank fills with run off water, causes the RCD to trip. I had to isolate my aircon via a circuit breaker.
So, I strongly suggest you get a sparky to megger test the van, Im betting its the same aircon issue. Get the sparky to put a double gang 16C breaker as a new circuit for the aircon (pig of job).
Good luck
Get your son in law to do some testing, check the air-con with it disconnected and check the van again with the air=con disc. If the fault in the van remains you will need to pull a few outlets off and check each loop separately starting with the first leg from the rcd. I would also disc the rcd and check again in case the rcd is the fault.
PhilC there should be no MEN link in a van under normal conditions. any EN link should only be a fault or a faulty appliance that is still connected.
frank
Hi Stuart
Just to be clear
The VAN RCD trips as soon as you turn the VAN main switch with power connected ???
IF ALL electical appliances are turned OFF AT their SWITCHES, It does indicate a wiring fault
But the Air con SHOULD also have it's own isolating switch, It should be possible to isolate it !!!!
A fault in the extension lead should NOT cause the VAN RCD to trip
Back to your continuity test with the multi meter where did you do the actual test?? & did the meter beep continiously??
If it beeps continiously, it indicates a near dead short, not just a bit of water leakage
.There should not be a link between EITHER line & EARTH pin within the van IN AUS
NewZealand is different , yes !
Since you have has a similar problem before, I suggest a full check up of all visable wiring including. removing switches outlets etc for inspection of wiring
Remember, Overload CBS & RCDs do not give full protection against fires
PeterQ
.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:53:30 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:57:53 AM
frank
Most of the new vans I have seen have one RCBO that handles all the GPOs, aircon etc, to my surprise when I first got our van the aircon was hard wired to this RCBO and all other appliances via a GPO and plug set.
thats what I get from opening my gob and putting both feet in....
I very much doubt there is a MEN link in there as there is no place to put one. That was my bad oopppss....
None the less this is still very annoying and needs a fix for Stuart, I very much doubt its a cable fault.. but keeping an open mind.
Stuart, what breed of caravan is it and how old?
-- Edited by Phil C on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:50:53 AM
-- Edited by Phil C on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:55:26 AM
Larry
Phil:- haven't been running aircon, at all, for hot or cold air.
Frank:- glad removing walls may be a bit down the track. Got son-in-law coming down next weekend so may have some more info then? We have already had the RCD replaced so that shouldn't be the issue???
Peter:- yes, van trips as soon as I turn the van main switch on with power connected. I can't locate a separate aircon isolating switch. Yes, meter beeped continuously. I took several power points off the wall and checked behind them. No loose wires, was checking continuity. I have been made aware now that the neutral and earth are connected at the RCD therefore the continuos beeping is explained.
Stuart
HI
Not if the ho****er is turned" OFF" and only if the element has shorted to the sheath
-
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 11:18:50 AM
you say: I have been made aware now that the neutral and earth are connected at the RCD therefore the continuos beeping is explained.
There should not be a deliberate connection between earth and "neutral" here.
frank
HI Stuart
Is the VAN an Aust van ? or a NZ van?
IF an Aus van OR a NZ van being used in Aus there should be NO connection between EIHER LINE & EARTHING system ANYWHERE in the van !!.
Also if a NZ van being used in Aus, there could be other problems
PeterQ.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 11:19:59 AM
Gas hot water system.
Australian van.
Thank you so much for such an interesting conversation everyone . It's really appreciated!!
I think this is a bit beyond me, so I'll leave it to the experts. I'll let you know how I go, but not taking van back till end of month. Will update you then.
Thanks again!! Regards Stuart
gooba53 wrote:
I have been made aware now that the neutral and earth are connected at the RCD therefore the continuos beeping is explained.
Stuart
HI Stuart
Is the VAN an Aust van ? or a NZ van?
IF an Aus van OR a NZ van being used in Aus there should be NO connection between EIHER LINE & EARTHING system ANYWHERE in the van !!.
Also if a NZ van being used in Aus, there could be other problems
PeterQ.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 12th of September 2014 11:19:59 AM
Agree with PeterQ. Good point about NZ van.
OK aircon is off the menu. Still a good puzzle to play with.
PeterQ, how likely is it to be the RCD and why would there be a link at the RCD?
Its going to be interesting to see the outcome of this.
Cheers all
-- Edited by Phil C on Friday 12th of September 2014 01:48:36 PM
Hi Phil
There should not be any link between either line & the earthing system in the VAN ,with Ausralian vans
Having one ,could lead to RCD tripping if the input polarity was incorrect .
New Zealand do have a rquirement for ALL vans to have a current cert of fitness
One of the requirements is to have correct polarity,including at ALL supply outlets
That also allows the use of SINGLE pole switching in NZ
In Aus, the polarity of 3pin sockets ,was not even a recommendtion for many many years .
I doubt it is the RCD as the problem has occurred before , but it can not be ruled out.
What I do suspect is an intermitent fault ,that has now become permanent.
PeterQ
Would love to get in there with my megger.
Cheers mate
I'm really hesitant to continue giving advice to members on rectifying faults in 240 volt installations. Apart from the fact it's illegal for unlicensed persons to work on 240 volt installations, there is always the danger of electrocution for the inexperienced. My suggestion is have a Licensed Electrician look at the problem for you...
I do agree with Gorilla, Im probably guilty of this as well. Will have to watch what Im saying.
Get a licensed sparky to do the work, and get a certificate of compliance, covers the nether regions in case of an insurance claim.
Safe travels
You should know what temporary earth is .. The best way to check polarity with test lamps..
Any leakage from active or neutral with trip the RCD..
So there can't be MEN after the RCD ..
The SHOULD be double pole idolater switches on water heater/ maybe not on air conditioning ?
So even if it's turned off .. It will trip the RCD..
There's other ways , things to check but must be done by qual elect person..
seems there is neutral - earth polarity issue??
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Friday 12th of September 2014 10:42:50 PM
Personally I would not suggest to anyone who is not electrically qualified to attempt ANY live testing, be that with test lamps or multi meter
PeterQ