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Post Info TOPIC: Catch 22 on Over Weight Van


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Catch 22 on Over Weight Van
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Having read on forums many interesting comments about weight limits I decided to weigh my van.
SHOCK horror to find its 400kg over the stated maximum on the plate.
AND its only partially loaded.  If I remove the water, the tools and the gas bottles it will still be more than 200kg over the weight stated on the compliance plate.
It tows extremely well and shows no signs of any weight issues or instability. With electric brakes and a modern brake controller I believe it to be completely safe so it seems I can only keep my fingers crossed that I don't get weighed by police and if I do plead ignorance !

Made in 2003 by a manufacturer that is no longer in business ( Viscount ) this situation highlights the need for standards to be imposed on caravan manufacturers to ensure compliance plates are meaningful.

Even if I remove absolutely everything from the Van I doubt that it would get anywhere near the TARE so it must have been weighed with no wheels or brakes, No air Con , No water heater, No fridge and no Nuffink to get anywhere near the stated Tare.

I wonder how many people would be towing vans blissfully ignorant of the fact that they are most likely substantially over weight ?



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Peter Rose https://www.fat-buster.com.au/



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Welcome to the club Peter I know the feeling. Have a talk to your manufacturer.

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Chief one feather

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Yep, it's a big club too Peter.

The other thing is to keep an eye on is the combined axle rating. It can be a problem all this weight stuff. Nearly as bad as the height of a number plate. I have only recently gone through all the weighing and checking etc. The horse is way under all max's but aluminium teepee is just under. I am currently sorting through things to see if I can get rid of anything to bring the ATM even further down from plated ATM. I can't get the plate changed as builder has gone and too costly and a lot of mucking around now.

I am annoyed with it all as I have 2x95lt fresh water tanks and can't travel with water in them. I have to have bucket washes when travelling around and being a big bloke have trouble getting in the bucket. One reason why I like to chuck the anchor out for a while.


Keep Safe on the roads and out there.



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Hi Peter Rosesmile

Sorry about that situation. The industry is a disgrace the way they have cheated and fudged and misled honest normal people !! Still some cowboys in the business too IMHO.

One suggestion I would give is to consult with an engineer approved by the RTA who could advise you if he could increase the plate weight. He would be approved to look at the van and the tires and axle types etc and if satisfied or after some changes issue the new weights which you can then get approved by the RTA and on your records. 

If you go to the RTA website(or whatever it calls it's self now !) there is a complete list of approved engineers and their address and contacts. Also their specialised area of expertise as applicable.

Good luck jaahn 



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Peter Rose wrote:

Having read on forums many interesting comments about weight limits I decided to weigh my van.
SHOCK horror to find its 400kg over the stated maximum on the plate.
AND its only partially loaded.  If I remove the water, the tools and the gas bottles it will still be more than 200kg over the weight stated on the compliance plate.
It tows extremely well and shows no signs of any weight issues or instability. With electric brakes and a modern brake controller I believe it to be completely safe so it seems I can only keep my fingers crossed that I don't get weighed by police and if I do plead ignorance !

Made in 2003 by a manufacturer that is no longer in business ( Viscount ) this situation highlights the need for standards to be imposed on caravan manufacturers to ensure compliance plates are meaningful.

Even if I remove absolutely everything from the Van I doubt that it would get anywhere near the TARE so it must have been weighed with no wheels or brakes, No air Con , No water heater, No fridge and no Nuffink to get anywhere near the stated Tare.

I wonder how many people would be towing vans blissfully ignorant of the fact that they are most likely substantially over weight ?


 The issue is with axle ratings, if you have an accident and seriously injure, maim or kill someone, how would you feel then? Just plead ignorance? Your a long way over weight for your van wake up before it's too late!



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Kebbin



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Peter as Viscount are no longer in the business you will need to speak to an Automotive Engineer and have your weight recalculated to maximum allowable for your configuration, and new compliance plate fitted - As it currently stands; If you get roadside checked you will lose 3 demerits + Fine and (in worse case scenario), you will have to leave van where it is and have it put on a recovery truck which can cost multiple thousands of dollars (dependant on location) to retrieve van that cannot be used on any road in Australia
+++a.

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Peter,

The problem you are facing is not unusual, especially when you are not the owner from new of a van. It is difficult to know what has been added by other owners before you got it, and which were never included in the vans original weights.

That said, I become another voice for getting some simple engineering and rating checks done.

I would at the least be checking the following before getting an engineer involved.

1) Axle rating - should be on compliance plate, and could be confirmed by axle manufacturer.

2) Tyre weight rating - minimum may be on compliance plate, but actual will be read off of the tyre. - See how that compares to the weight you have confirmed.

Based on that, you will get a picture whether the unit could be re rated to a higher ATM within the scope of the ratings noted, especially the axle rating. If it can be then get an engineer involved, & if it can't be, then you need to decide whether to invest further to make the vehicle legal.

I note you say that the unit tows safely, so your apparent chosen course of action is to continue to tow as is until/if caught then plead ignorance.

A comment for consideration. Ignorance of the law is not a defence, especially when you are in fact NOT ignorant of the law. And forget what others say about having an accident and hurting others if the unit is not as safe as you "believe", which would be a tragic and preventable outcome. The guilt of that happening is nothing compared to the guilt you will feel if you have an accident and a friend or worse still a member of your family is injured or killed.

As for the questions you raise, I suggest you are correct and a good many are towing without knowing where they stand legally with respect to weights. And the matter of incorrect compliance plate weights has been discussed on various forums many times, and seems not to change.

Good luck, but please don't just ignore the issue.

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Peter I concur with Kebbin and Ian - Currently you have an un-roadworthy van, so unfortunately the onus is on you to fix - If currently at your home base arrange for a local automotive engineer to inspect - if van needs axle/spring/tyre upgrades it will need to be uplifted to workshop doing modifications. with luck he can just re-calculate and give you certification for you to take to Register Office and apply for new compliance plate.
This has been a major issue for some time and is the main reason for all the current discussions in magazines and social media - but until the regulations are changed and manufacturers and dealers are held to account it will cause much angst and aggravation - it is worthwhile to put a note to the ACCC on their website www.accc.gov.au/consumers/complaints-problems


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The issue I'm more concerned with is the GCM, I have an ATM on the van of 3200kg but I keep it below 2700kg because if I fully loaded the tug more than 2700kg and I would be approaching the limit. As I am usually under with the tug I transfer somethings into it rather than using the van's front boot still the same overall weight but puts it more over the tug's back axle rather than hanging off the ball.



-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Wednesday 24th of May 2017 01:12:14 PM

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DavRo

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Half the van on the road are overweight knowingly or ignorant of the fact (don't wanna' know).

The authorities are waking up to the situation slowly & will be taking more action in the future.

Good on 'em.

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Yep to nearly all of the above as I was in your position last year when I decided to take my Van over a weighbridge I found I was 130 kg or thereabouts over the weight lim7t with tanks full !!!, no good. Decided to keep Van off the road till I aquired an ATM increas which managed to give me nearly 400 kg extra which made me happy once again and if I were ever to purchase another Van it would be one of the foremost considerations. And still most new Vans out thereare still in the 400kg payload so it shows that Dealers as well as manufacturers are still not paying attention. When questioned they simply say 400kg is heaps till you point out that two full tanks of water , gas , hot water system , n a washing macine in van and that takes up 75% of the payload not leaving much for neccesary items.

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Hi Peter Rose,

Most has already been mentioned above.

Food for thought. Most caravan chassis are made by a chassis manufacture, if so see what is the maximum weight the chassis is capable of. IE: my chassis has a 3500kgs axle group. but I am only 3300kgs gross Van weight.

Then consider an engineer to upgrade the compliance plate to suit.

Also note depends on the state you are registered in as they have different laws.

Regards John.

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patrol03 wrote:

Welcome to the club Peter I know the feeling. Have a talk to your manufacturer.


 I don't think thats possible Viscount are not available anymore and the owner of that business is now resting in the big caravan park.

I agree caravan manufactors need to be more accountable and build caravans with gross weights in mind, eg our 2012 caravan has suspension rating 2900kgs but the stated gross is 2670kgs

Where in the hell did they find that number not the tyres rated at 1100kgs each, not the axles 1500kgs each, not the chassis because its plate reads something higher again. I am presently away from my home without the caravan to get the right numbers.

How many times have you parked in a camp looked around at various caravans they appear to have the some chassis built by a certain manufactor and will have different weight rating.

The buyer has lot to understand but is now being hounded by the media for a cheap story, not one mag has wrote a story against the industry and now law enforcement agencies want to hit the travelling public. The agencies are not appearing to be investigating the manufactors of caravans but attacking the public.

Life should be a breeze when in retirement and enjoying one self with your caravan out and about.



-- Edited by Radar on Wednesday 24th of May 2017 04:12:13 PM

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Hi.
When you looking at van weights.
Start with chassis.
There are several MFG's and ALL have EVERY chassis mfg'd. Stamped or plated with it's Max. By LAW.
As it goes through the gates.
Then the Independant suspensions are graded. Then the Axles and spring units.
Then the Brakes. 10 in. 12 in are different tonnage allowed. Then the individual tyres.

Look at plate inside van. then look at stamping or plate on Suspension or Chassis
If suspension rated more than van. It's easy to change (or used to be.) If not you have to physically
change things and pay largish Engineers bills.

Simplicity easy. just stick a next size unit under van New Plate and away.
I've seen a coupla Roadstars done over the yrs. Helped one with welding.

A lot of us travel sans, water in tanks.
I only ever topped mine up, when we got there.

But have also travelled long enuff, that we never had van more than 3\5ths loaded at any time.
(6.5mtr Semi offroader.)

EVERYBODY carries waay too much crap.
After 50 odd yrs. we have it pretty much off pat.now.



-- Edited by macka17 on Wednesday 24th of May 2017 06:52:41 PM

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I worked in Engineering for my whole working life. Every structure has a maximum safe working load SWL. This applies to caravan chassis & suspensions as well.

Simply asking an Engineer to change a compliance plate is not the answer unless the underpinnings are strengthened. Actually it's probably illegal.

I designed multi storey buildings, bridges, power stations & dams for over 40 years so I think that I'm qualified to speak on this subject.

Now that I'm retired & travel extensively I see so many RV's obviously carrying too much weight.

The sooner they're taken off the road the better for all of us.

Lots of OFF ROAD caravans should be sent exactly where they're labelled. You're not towing a 6x4 trailer of rubbish to the tip mate!



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Peter Rose wrote:

Made in 2003 by a manufacturer that is no longer in business ( Viscount ) this situation highlights the need for standards to be imposed on caravan manufacturers to ensure compliance plates are meaningful.


 I think I'd remove the plate and toss it in the bin - but I'm that sort of maverick :)



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Mike Harding wrote:
Peter Rose wrote:

Made in 2003 by a manufacturer that is no longer in business ( Viscount ) this situation highlights the need for standards to be imposed on caravan manufacturers to ensure compliance plates are meaningful.


 I think I'd remove the plate and toss it in the bin - but I'm that sort of maverick :)


Gday...

Head-in-Sand.jpg

Yep - no - that'd work.

cheers - John



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Unfortunately.
Too many think the same way.

BIG Landcruiser. I can tow anything. Look at my HUUUUGE engine.
Smaller ones too.
read up. figure what veh you want to live with.
THEN buy a van to suit. and load it to it's legal capacity leaving room to spare.

I can guarantee.
That if EVERYBODY completely unloaded their vans. Tomorrow morning. Completely...

87 to 95% of them. would have around 40% or so of gear there.
They have NEVER used. Since loading it into van in beginning.

Humans do not know how to pack sensibly. Specially if a woman involved.
"What if". "One day" "Maybe".

ME included. but not so bad nowadays.

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I do not know what the answer is

But...

I think that unless someone comes up with a sensible answer
There is going to be a lot of anguish, for those who buy these overweight, secondhand caravans in the future



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Tony

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Sensible.

Means planning ahead.

When I was younger. and living basically full time in my Yachts. Working and not.

I was lucky. had a unit (Gave wife the home)

I just rented it out on the understanding that the back bedroom and left shed were mine.

A lot of my mates. Same situation as me, but no solid building etc.

They either bought a 10\20ft Container "Insulated " preferably.)
Then either booked space in rear of boat yard. or at family\mates\ex's places.
Kept all the stuff they owned but didn't want to drag around.

Van. Yacht. Same thing. apart from fact that one floats. Hopefully.

NOBODY. Has to drag all their crap round with them.

I did two or three Multi month trips on big dirt bikes.
What didn't fit on back. Stayed on boat.

There's NO difference.

I managed right round Aust Fine.

Including Burke Hospital to Adelaide on a packet of pills and left arm US.
Torn Shoulder ligaments compliments an EMU,
that liked the sparkling spokes on front wheel at around 100 or so in road train wheel ruts.
was cruising nicely. Ruts steering us basically.

Park it somewhere. OR if you haven't used. Dump it.

Now watch 'em start......

I know probably a coupla thousand over the yrs. That have LIVED\Worked.
Full time in vans.

Conclusion.

OLDER we get. MORE we drag around with us.

Something like. they don't want to part with as they'll never replace.

Just like me and my 535 Stacer out front with 90hp Opti on back.
Probably 100 hrs on it since Aug '06.
But I keep putting it off.

"SELL THAT FARKIN' boat" Madam keeps yelling at me. Yea... Ok love.........
One day. (Maybeeee) shhhh.


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Latest article in RV Magazine rvdaily.com.au/issue013/

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Peter Rose wrote:

Even if I remove absolutely everything from the Van I doubt that it would get anywhere near the TARE so it must have been weighed with no wheels or brakes, No air Con , No water heater, No fridge and no Nuffink to get anywhere near the stated Tare.

I wonder how many people would be towing vans blissfully ignorant of the fact that they are most likely substantially over weight ?


As usual on this board lots of free advice but little actually answering the question LOL
For those who worry about my decision I will add that I am not a novice at this. In 1998 and 1999 my wife and I lived in a 21ft Regent and traveled up and down the east coast between Sydney and North of Cairns.
As at that time we carried everything including dozens of bottles of wine rescued from our wine cellar when we sold the house and a candelabra for dinner parties under the awning. I am sure the Regent would have been at least 1 ton overweight if not more but at that time no one on the road discussed being overweight ( other than personally )

Later in 2014 we had another caravan a small semi off road Jayco, and no one I met on the road discussed van weights.

We also lived on a boat from 2000 to 2010  a small ocean going motor cruiser 51ft and weighing 44 ton  ( steel )

FYI I have consulted an engineer and its not possible to increase the weight limit without substantial expense and it is also impossible to reduce the weight sufficiently  to comply with the plate. 
Yes I will reduce as much as possible but it would be pointless to have no fridge carry no water or Remove the stove and the beds LOL

My question was
"I wonder how many people would be towing vans blissfully ignorant of the fact that they are most likely substantially over weight ?"



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Peter,

you and Mike make a good pair based on your posts and replies on this forum.







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Regards Ian

 

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G'day again Peter, I will answer that question without printed facts.

Travelling up and down the three Eastern States of our playground many times I see and speak with many happy campers. While speaking with those people the subject pops up, as on here, many admit freely to knowing their rig is over weight, many of those people admit to way over and really don't care.

Me, I do care, so make sure my horse and teepee are within the weights on the plate. 



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Peter, The breaches would be in the Thousands - due to the manufacturers adding options like awnings, solar panels, batteries, tool boxes, spare tyre/s, grey water tanks, gas bottles after a guestimate calculation of a Tare
Tare mass is defined as:
"the total mass of the trailer when not carrying any load, but when ready for service, unoccupied (if relevant) and with all fluid reservoirs (if fitted) filled to nominal capacity except for fuel, which shall be 10 litres only, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted. This includes any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the combination vehicle is resting on a horizontal supporting plane. (Fluid reservoirs do not include water tanks and waste water tanks fitted to caravans)." (s. 12.7 VSB-1). I

This is done so they can (illegally) sell overweight vans to customers that own a towing vehicle that is underrated to the "actual" legally specified capacities.

https://www.change.org/p/stop-consumer-rip-offs-we-need-stronger-consumer-laws-and-enforcement



-- Edited by Possum3 on Thursday 25th of May 2017 08:36:08 AM

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What a lousy position for people to be in with older Vans ,basically they were never designed to meet current weight laws, the answer is to spend a small fortune haveing and old van that's worth practically nothing upgraded.

beats me why over the last fifty years everything that was manufactured then appears to be unsafe now,well the answer is if you can't afford the ransome, haveing your old van repaired and you can't afford a new one ,I guess you can't go camping anymore, These dreadfully unsafe older vans in some ways to the people that own them are treasured ,are they really the big unsafe things there supposed  be ?.it's wonder over the last fifty years we haven't heard of many accidents ,sure things should be manufactured to be safe , I don't think there has been hardly any carnage on the road over the years with older vans.



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Ron, It's not the old vans - It's the new ones that are being deliberately under-stamped on compliance plates - Most of the real old vans are not fitted with compliance plates so there is no issue with them.
Additionally when Mum and Dad bought/made their old Bondwood Van, they built it to last - normally with a set of plans that were engineered/designed to comply with Road Traffic Authority Rules and Regulations - They didn't attempt to fudge the Regulations, because they behaved ethically - Any manufacturer that has built a van in this Century that has understated Tare has been deliberately fudged by a Self-Regulating industry, more interested in getting a product out the door rather than complying with the Regulations and ensuring a safe product is on the roads.
It's about time we stopped from being "Cash Cows" for these mongrels that behave in unethical and dishonest dealings. Stand up and fight for amendments to ensure Compliance to Australian Consumer Law.

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Mike Harding wrote:
Peter Rose wrote:

Made in 2003 by a manufacturer that is no longer in business ( Viscount ) this situation highlights the need for standards to be imposed on caravan manufacturers to ensure compliance plates are meaningful.


 I think I'd remove the plate and toss it in the bin - but I'm that sort of maverick :)


 I'm not sure that maverick comes close to your way of thinking Mike.no



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It seems the water storage is the main weight issue ? One reason we went motorhome . As per usual equal and opposite reactions !! Ahh !!

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Chief one feather

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Sorry Peter but this is not answering your question but I didn't want to start another thread on ATM's.

Out of curiosity and being a VIC rego and not in VIC I decided to ring our Vic Roads people and speak with them about, how they actually weigh caravans and cars etc when towing. After about one hour on the phone and three different people I was told "they are not sure". My question was, do they weigh the car and van connected or take van off the tow ball and weigh the van and car seperate as well as hooked up. Mmmmmm. Maybe I should go find a truck weighbridge that is open and ask the uniform guys.



-- Edited by Dougwe on Thursday 25th of May 2017 11:13:13 AM

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TUG.......2014 Holden LT Colorado Twin Cab Ute with Canopy

DEN....... 2014 "Chief" Arrow CV  (with some changes)

 

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