Joining 6 B&S cable..

aussie_paul · Guru

Joining 6 B&S cable..

exa41 · Guru

Best way is to make a T joint ,strip about 25 mm of insulation from the main wire ,now get a fine screwdriver and insert it into the bared wire an d divide it in half, now get the wire you want to connect and insert it through the gap approx 25mm ,separate the cable in equal halves and wind around the main cable one clockwise and the other anti clockwise ,now solder the joint and tape the joint thoroughly , presto it's done.

Peter_n_Margaret · Guru

Soldered joins in cables are frowned on in vehicles.
Soldering hardens and stiffens the copper and makes it more prone to stress cracking caused by the continuous vibrations in vehicles.
The recommended method is by crimping using a proper crimp and crimping tool (the cheapies don't achieve the required "cold weld").
Check your car. You won't find any wires joined by solder. They are all crimps.

All that said, I did use some soldered joints in the OKA. I wish I had not. I learned better ways after the job was done. I have had 2 failures where wires have broken adjacent to soldered joins. Broken wires are a big fire risk.

Cheers,
Peter

-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Thursday 30th of July 2015 01:35:06 AM

dogbox · Guru

crimping is best if possible

hako · Guru

I always solder my joints as per exa41 and have never had one snap off unlike crimped joints which either come loose or break at the joint due to too much crimp pressure. An expensive crimp tool probably would improve things but then you need a selection of crimps most of which you will never use whilst for soldering all you need is a cheap soldering iron and some solder.
Good Luck.

exa41 · Guru

Sorry Peter you are wrong, if you follow the procedure that I have described you won't have an issue ,not many people have a $100 + crimper , yes if you are doing a inline connection its ok but 2 x 6b+s in one side of the lug and 1 x 6b+ s on the other is a bad joint .

Delta18 · Guru

A soldered joint done as ex said is the best method. I would add though to not be shy with applying insulation tape. If enough is used extending away from the join in three directions will act as a Splint. Any movement that Peter rightly says will damage the wire / join will be eliminated.

The question Paul asked was about T joining into a cable. For terminal connectors I agree with crimped terminals.

Cheers Neil

Phil C · Guru

When I was in the RAAF we were taught NASA then HI Reliability soldering techniques. If the joint is soldered properly and it looks mirror finish, it will last longer than most of us, the technique was used in spacecraft and aircraft, so good enough for cars and caravans.

There is an approved technique for splicing a cable, I will look in my texts to find a diagram for you.

When I was teaching electricians, I was horrified to see the soldering technique of "trowel it on while its hot" that is sure to cause cracks and mechanical stress.

Cheers

Phil C · Guru

BTW exa is pretty close to the money. I have been looking on youtube and typed soldering an electrical T junction. Got some funny results but there are a number of videos that are good.

If you get into a hole Paul, give me a call...

Cheers

exa41 · Guru

PHIL ,Not trying to be a smart but I have done thousands of those joints over the 50 odd years of being a sparky ,it is the only accepted way to splice in an earth wire, the reason why vehicle manufacturers don't us soldered joints is cost ,

landy · Guru

I have always soldered this type of joint and have never had a problem. Having said that I can see the value in Peters post
and will keep it in mind for future job's.
Landy

03_Troopy · Guru

Actually, crimping is the better method where movement or vibration is concerned. Admittedly you do need to use the correct tools which can be expensive, but as Phil said, not many people understand the correct way to solder. I was trained as a HRHS instructor at Laverton Phil . And I do have to correct one point Phil, 99.9% of joints in Aircraft are crimped, not soldered. The reason is because of reliability, not cost (sorry Exa). As you can imagine there are many thousands of hours of servicing history and research that will back up that claim about reliability as well.Heavy current carrying terminations are best crimped as well, because if the connection becomes loose and heats up the terminal, the solder can fail and allow the current carrying cable to fall out of the terminal. I have seen the result of this first hand in welding equipment that has been repaired by a DIY expert, it's amazing what a couple of hundred amps will do to a 35mm² cable when it shorts directly to ground.

But for the average Joe who has a reasonable knowledge of soldering techniques, solder joints are OK in vehicles providing the joints are supported and not allowed to flop around (not battery cables though). Covering the joints in dual wall (glue lined) heatshrink is the best method of sealing the joints afterwards.

And this comes from about 30 years of servicing aircraft plus around 10 years of other hands on wiring experience including Mine Service vehicles, Blast Hole Drill Rigs, 240V equipment and 415V equipment.

patrolst · Senior Member

aussie_paul wrote:
I have to T into my 6 B&S cables. How do people usually do this?
Aussie Paul.

Try this type of joiner.

http://www.sidewinder.com.au/page105.html

aussie_paul · Guru

Thanks everyone, some great advice and ideas for me to consider. Getting a little done on the rewiring each day. Yesterday was only 7 degrees with gusts of 67 km/h, so in the van with the diesel heater running, and the TV going I was quite comfortable. biggrin

Aussie Paul. smile

Izabarack · Guru

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Soldering hardens and stiffens the copper and makes it more prone to stress cracking caused by the continuous vibrations in vehicles.

Not so much stiffening of the copper as creating a point in multistrand wire that concentrates vibration and bending until the point work hardens and breaks. Lots of tape and/or securing the wire run against movement or vibration eliminates any concern. What I do like about a soldered joint is that a good connection can be observed and the need for good quality and calibrated crimping tools is eliminated.

Iza

03_Troopy · Guru

Izabarack wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Soldering hardens and stiffens the copper and makes it more prone to stress cracking caused by the continuous vibrations in vehicles.

Not so much stiffening of the copper as creating a point in multistrand wire that concentrates vibration and bending until the point work hardens and breaks. Lots of tape and/or securing the wire run against movement or vibration eliminates any concern. What I do like about a soldered joint is that a good connection can be observed and the need for good quality and calibrated crimping tools is eliminated.

Iza

Exactly.

Radar · Guru

patrolst wrote:
aussie_paul wrote:
I have to T into my 6 B&S cables. How do people usually do this?
Aussie Paul.
Try this type of joiner.

http://www.sidewinder.com.au/page105.html

Hi Patrolist. Thank you for that link, in the near future I going to change my 2nd battery and heavy wire to the caravan frig wiring arrangements about and one of those connectors would do the job nicely.

My soldiering is not pretty and finishing with tape is the part I don't like.

At a around I found a heavy climping tool must of had it a year or two before I really worked what it was for and how to get it to work, a few times there I nearly threw them in the bin but now they travel in my electrical kit. Very handy.

Enjoy. Ralph.

Phil C · Guru

exa41 wrote:
PHIL ,Not trying to be a smart but I have done thousands of those joints over the 50 odd years of being a sparky ,it is the only accepted way to splice in an earth wire, the reason why vehicle manufacturers don't us soldered joints is cost ,

Agree with you exa, the cost of manual labor in soldering is astronomical. Crimp connections are much cheaper and easy to make.

My comments were related to the early spacecraft and aircraft that all had solder connections mainly due to the fact that crimping hadnt been accepted into aerospace industry at that time.

The last aircraft I worked on was the macchi, and its main connection method was soldering.

Yes, in electrical earths can be T jointed with solder and it is still the better way (I cant find my old texts to show the method). None the less a well made solder joint will be strong and last under a number of differing stresses. Noting that all metal will fatigue and crack. Thats why we put stress loops etc, into soldered cable and connectors.

Cheers, hope you are well.

Phil C · Guru

03_Troopy wrote:
Izabarack wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Soldering hardens and stiffens the copper and makes it more prone to stress cracking caused by the continuous vibrations in vehicles.

Not so much stiffening of the copper as creating a point in multistrand wire that concentrates vibration and bending until the point work hardens and breaks. Lots of tape and/or securing the wire run against movement or vibration eliminates any concern. What I do like about a soldered joint is that a good connection can be observed and the need for good quality and calibrated crimping tools is eliminated.

Iza
Exactly.

Here here... smile

hako · Guru

So when you crimp a joint, you are squeezing or deforming the copper strands into intimate contact with the other strands and the connector - Question: doesn't the copper harden when deformed and irrespective of this why will crimping not cause the wire to break due vibration etc where it enters the connection?
Regards

Izabarack · Guru

hako wrote:
Question: doesn't the copper harden when deformed and irrespective of this why will crimping not cause the wire to break due vibration etc where it enters the connection?

Yes, crimping does create a point at which the multistand wire becomes a pressure welded solid. You might notice that crimps usually have an internal barrel and something like a light gauge aluminium barrel between the plastic outer insulation and that internal barrel. If you look down a new crimp you will see that the insulation butts up against the internal barrel when you push the stripped wire into the crimp. Proper crimping tools have jaws that apply pressure to the combination of wire and the internal barrel and close to a pre-determined finished dimension before the ratchet releases. You test the calibration or adjustment of crimping pliers by inserting a stepped shaft in the closed pliers. Small dimension shaft pushes through and the larger dimension does not and the size of the shaft depends on what wire size the crimper is designed to be used on. At the same time the wire is crimped, another set of jaws squeezes the light gauge barrel onto the insulation to create the situation where the first opportunity for the finished wire has to flex is at the end of the crimp. Any bending then happens along a stretch of wire that is still truly multistrand. This crimping of the outer barrel onto the insulation ensures that any vibration never gets to cause any work hardening at the point where the wire becomes a solid conductor.

That's a pretty general description. Battery terminals are often bare metal barrels and vibration protection is inherent in the size of the wire. Other methods of preventing working of the connection include looming to other wires in a bundle and cable clamps.

Every notice the arrangement on the Missus' iron, where the cord enters the body of the iron. Manufactures worked out long ago that if you maximise the radius of any bend in copper wires then work hardening and breakage is mostly prevented.

Iza

hako · Guru

Iza - thanks for that you have explained it to a "T" and in a manner easily understood. I've been looking at the dearer ratchet type crimpers and from what you say they are the go. The non-ratchet ones they sell for under $10 seem to be the ones most used by punters but maybe you'd do just as good hitting the connector with a hammer.
Thanks again.

wasn_me · Guru

Izabarack wrote:
hako wrote:
Question: doesn't the copper harden when deformed and irrespective of this why will crimping not cause the wire to break due vibration etc where it enters the connection?

Yes, crimping does create a point at which the multistand wire becomes a pressure welded solid. You might notice that crimps usually have an internal barrel and something like a light gauge aluminium barrel between the plastic outer insulation and that internal barrel. If you look down a new crimp you will see that the insulation butts up against the internal barrel when you push the stripped wire into the crimp. Proper crimping tools have jaws that apply pressure to the combination of wire and the internal barrel and close to a pre-determined finished dimension before the ratchet releases. You test the calibration or adjustment of crimping pliers by inserting a stepped shaft in the closed pliers. Small dimension shaft pushes through and the larger dimension does not and the size of the shaft depends on what wire size the crimper is designed to be used on. At the same time the wire is crimped, another set of jaws squeezes the light gauge barrel onto the insulation to create the situation where the first opportunity for the finished wire has to flex is at the end of the crimp. Any bending then happens along a stretch of wire that is still truly multistrand. This crimping of the outer barrel onto the insulation ensures that any vibration never gets to cause any work hardening at the point where the wire becomes a solid conductor.
That's a pretty general description. Battery terminals are often bare metal barrels and vibration protection is inherent in the size of the wire. Other methods of preventing working of the connection include looming to other wires in a bundle and cable clamps.
Every notice the arrangement on the Missus' iron, where the cord enters the body of the iron. Manufactures worked out long ago that if you maximise the radius of any bend in copper wires then work hardening and breakage is mostly prevented.
Iza

Brilliant post. (There's always something to learn) In another life I was a maintenance fitter on heavy equipment. This involved a lot of auto electrical work. I never gave a second thought to what happens when you crimp a connector. I've seen connectors crimped with side cutters, pointy nosed pliers, cold chisels, hammers.

Cheers Pete

Phil C · Guru

Izabarack wrote:
hako wrote:
Question: doesn't the copper harden when deformed and irrespective of this why will crimping not cause the wire to break due vibration etc where it enters the connection?

Yes, crimping does create a point at which the multistand wire becomes a pressure welded solid. You might notice that crimps usually have an internal barrel and something like a light gauge aluminium barrel between the plastic outer insulation and that internal barrel. If you look down a new crimp you will see that the insulation butts up against the internal barrel when you push the stripped wire into the crimp. Proper crimping tools have jaws that apply pressure to the combination of wire and the internal barrel and close to a pre-determined finished dimension before the ratchet releases. You test the calibration or adjustment of crimping pliers by inserting a stepped shaft in the closed pliers. Small dimension shaft pushes through and the larger dimension does not and the size of the shaft depends on what wire size the crimper is designed to be used on. At the same time the wire is crimped, another set of jaws squeezes the light gauge barrel onto the insulation to create the situation where the first opportunity for the finished wire has to flex is at the end of the crimp. Any bending then happens along a stretch of wire that is still truly multistrand. This crimping of the outer barrel onto the insulation ensures that any vibration never gets to cause any work hardening at the point where the wire becomes a solid conductor.
That's a pretty general description. Battery terminals are often bare metal barrels and vibration protection is inherent in the size of the wire. Other methods of preventing working of the connection include looming to other wires in a bundle and cable clamps.
Every notice the arrangement on the Missus' iron, where the cord enters the body of the iron. Manufactures worked out long ago that if you maximise the radius of any bend in copper wires then work hardening and breakage is mostly prevented.
Iza

Go to the top of the class Iza, thats one of the best definitions of crimping Ive ever read. Probably the sidewinder jointer mentioned in a previous post would save a lot of cursing and tears, but I wonder what effect it has on the cables.

Cheers

exa41 · Guru

I have seen it many times where a wire has broken at the lug in automotive use with a crimped joint ,copper wire work hardens no matter what joining method we use ,I do it in my race cars to get a more positive joint always shrink wrapped or taped , anything will fail if you are unlucky enough.

03_Troopy · Guru

exa41 wrote:
I have seen it many times where a wire has broken at the lug in automotive use with a crimped joint ,copper wire work hardens no matter what joining method we use ,I do it in my race cars to get a more positive joint always shrink wrapped or taped , anything will fail if you are unlucky enough.

Crimping, using the correct size and type of lugs, along with the appropriate crimping tool and using the correct techniques is a very reliable way to splice or terminate wiring. Whether you solder or crimp your connections, you still need to support cabling with clamps or cable ties to prevent movement at the join so that you don't have the "work hardening" problems.

exa41 · Guru

Yes you're right Troopy , the problem was a broken wire on the fuel pump in tank ,didn't know why the pump stopped until I pulled it out.

03_Troopy · Guru

exa41 wrote:
Yes you're right Troopy , the problem was a broken wire on the fuel pump in tank ,didn't know why the pump stopped until I pulled it out.

Long as you didn't use a match to look inside it wink